Killing In The Name Of Advancement

While I'm not much of a fan of the song (and I didn't care for the movie it came from), I've been hearing a few commercials lately using the Bonnie Tyler song "I Need A Hero," and it has triggered thoughts on heroes and heroism in gaming.

While I'm not much of a fan of the song (and I didn't care for the movie it came from), I've been hearing a few commercials lately using the Bonnie Tyler song "I Need A Hero," and it has triggered thoughts on heroes and heroism in gaming.

Photo by Jessica Podraza on Unsplash

We have a problem with being heroic in a number of role-playing games, but most particularly in fantasy games where the ideas of advancement and betterment for characters are built around the concept of killing. In games with alignment systems, this doubles down because alignment becomes a mechanical expression of morality in those games. So, not only does this mean that killing is the method in these games for your character to become better at what they do, killing also becomes the moral choice for dealing with situations.

This is what causes the problem with being heroic, because in my mind being a hero and killing are at cross purposes with each other. I get that there are a number of different ways to define heroes, but for me that definition has been informed by my years of comic book reading. Superman. Captain America. Spider-Man. Yes, each of these characters has had stories where they have had to kill, but the focus of those stories wasn't about the killing, as much as they were about the impact that the killings had upon the characters. I am not saying that heroes are never going to kill, but they do it only as a last resort and their characters aren't defined by the action.

This is at the root of my disconnect with many fantasy role-playing games, and much fantasy fiction. I like characters who are heroes. The fantasy fiction that I interact with tends to come from comic books. Travis Morgan of Warlord. The Nightmaster. Heroes can be complicated, they can be conflicted, but they can still be basically good. For me, that can get lost in translation with games.

I define a lot of games as being heroic that others might not. I think that the underlying struggle of Call of Cthulhu and games like Trail of Cthulhu are inherently heroic. In this style of Lovecraftian gaming, the characters are engaged in a struggle that they will likely not survive, not because they want to be a part of that struggle, but because they feel that they must. I think that is the core of heroic characters: they are motivated to take action, regardless of their personal safety, because they know that the action has to be taken. I know that this is an untraditional interpretation of Lovecraftian games, but it is an interpretation that makes the games easier on those who aren't as much of a fan of horror, or horror gaming.

Games like Doctor Who: Adventures In Time And Space are at the opposite pole of the games that reward killing. Violence is deemphasized in the game by making it literally the last thing that occurs during a round. Characters are encouraged to resolve conflict through methods other than violence, much like in the television show. Doctor Who, as a television show, can be a weird example of heroism, however, because while the Doctor preaches that violence shouldn't be the answer, and he himself is mostly directly non-violent in his responses, he is also know to surround himself with Companions who can react violently on his behalf (Captain Jack Harkness, I am looking at you, along with the many UNIT soldiers who accompanied him in the old days), and sometimes with his blessing. The Doctor is, at times, moved to violence, and even to killing, but much like with the super-heroic examples that I mentioned above, the stories about him doing this are about the whys of his violent reactions and his killing, and how they impact the character. You could argue that a lot of the stories of the NuWho era are about exploring the impact that the deaths that he was responsible for during the Time War have weighed upon him, and shaped his psyche.

I think that I would have less of a problem with the systems that build advancement upon violence and killing, if there were more of an exploration of how these acts can impact the psychology of the characters, rather than just giving them an additional to hit bonus. If you've been in a fight in real life, you know that even when you win a fight your mind still works you over. Violence is not fun.

Yes, I know the counter argument: people do not want "realism" in their games, they want an escape. This can often boil down to wanting an escape from repercussions of actions, more than anything else.

So, how do you move role-playing games that rely on killing for advancement away from that? When Runequest first came out in 1978, this was one of the things that the game set out to "fix." In Runequest your character gets better by doing things, by using their skills. Yes, this includes combat skills, but you won't get more points for your survival skills because you killed some orcs at one point. When you use a skill in Runequest, you mark it, and then later make a roll to see if it is improved or not. It is a clean and elegant method that allows a character to get better at things by doing.

With games like Fate Core, or earlier examples like Green Ronin's SRD-derived True 20 system, would use a more story-driven method for advancement. The idea behind this is that, as characters move through a campaign, doing things, making rolls for things and, yes, sometimes even killing, that this is what should be the determinations for change to, and advancement of, player characters. In Fate this is called reaching milestones. The characters achieving a milestone in a campaign, which can be as straightforward as defeating an enemy, this should trigger a change in those characters. For example, if a character in a Fate game has an aspect of "Seeking Revenge Against The Sheriff," then defeating that sheriff would be an important milestone for the character in that campaign, and at the very least should trigger being able to change that aspect to something else, perhaps even something tied to the aftermath of that milestone like "I Guess I Am The Sheriff Now."
The sad truth with some fantasy role-playing games is that defeat just isn't enough. In games like the early editions of Dungeons & Dragons, you get less experience for defeating a foe than you would for killing them. That means a slower advancement for your character. In many ways, this is a punishment for taking a less violent course of action for your characters.

I have long held up the Karma system from TSR's classic Marvel Super-Heroes game is not only one of the earliest set of rules that attempted genre simulation, rather than simulation of physics, but it is the single best emulation of the pre-Watchmen, pre-Dark Knight Returns genre of super-hero comics. It punished you outright for killing. If your hero killed someone, they lost all of their Karma. It was worse if you had a super-group with pooled Karma, because you lost all of that pooled Karma as well. However, Karma also made you think about your character's short term successes versus their long term. Karma was a pool of point that were not only spent to improve your character, but you used them as a currency to improve dice rolls for task resolution.

Every time that you spent Karma to succeed at a task, that meant there would be some advancement that you could not take in the future, unless you worked your character harder to earn more Karma to make up for the expense. Add this to the fact that Karma had to be spent before you rolled your dice, and you could be making a literal crap shoot for your character.

However, this worked for Marvel Super-Heroes for a couple of reasons. First, comic book super-heroes really don't change a lot in comics. And when they do change, the changes are often rolled back the next time there is a new creative team on a book. Back in the 60s and 70s, when people other than Stan Lee began writing books at Marvel Comics he would refer to this as the "illusion of change." The idea was that you give just enough change to a character to suggest growth, but not so much change that readers can no longer recognize the core elements of a character. This is the basis of the assumption that, with comics, no matter how much things might change in the short term, sooner or later everything will go back to more or less of a reset point.

Secondly, Karma enforces heroic action. A part of heroic action, much like I mentioned above when talking about heroism in Lovecraftian games, is sacrifice. Karma is a sacrificial element of your character's heroism in the Marvel Super-Heroes game. You spend Karma before a dice roll, which means that you don't even know if you will need it or not, but the action that your character is attempting is so important that you are willing to make the sacrifice. You have to balance short term success against long term goals. You might even be able to argue that the Sanity system in Call of Cthulhu is a similar system of sacrifice to Karma. You sacrifice your character's sanity in order to attempt to drive Chthonic creatures away and "save" the world, even if it is only for the short term.

Unfortunately, the shift in sensibilities in comics that came not long after the Marvel Super-Heroes game came out made these ideas seem corny to a lot of people. Not for me, because even though I am a bigger fan of DC Comics than Marvel Comics, the heroism of the game really appealed to me (and echoes of it still do). It isn't coincidence that the games that drew me away from games like Dungeons & Dragons were Marvel Super-Heroes and Call of Cthulhu. They both had approaches that appealed to my desire for heroism, plus comics and horror fiction were (and still are) the media that I consume the most.

The nice thing about having so many different types of role-playing games available is that everyone can find the games that suit their agenda for playing games. None of these approaches are better than the others, but they can help us to find the ways to have more effective approach to what we want out of gaming. On some levels, even as a kid, I was unsatisfied with role-playing, but as more games started coming out I realized that it wasn't the activity itself that was causing the difficulty but that the approach of the game we were playing didn't suit what I wanted out of RPGs. That was easily fixed once I was able to find games that did better suit me, and I am still playing role-playing games after almost 40 years as a gamer.
 

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The fact that something is a thought experiment does not by its nature, make it equal to all other thought experiments. This is a problem many people have in real life, that because they think something it is equal to any thoughts anyone else has. I hate to suggest that there may indeed be forms of badwrongfun, but I raise some serious eyebrows and some of the ways people talk about games of "kill the orc". I find it strange that people can "have fun" in games that are about little more than killing as many other humanoids (of the wrong color of course) as possible. The fact that many fantasy races stem from stereotypes, exaggerations or mockeries of real people makes me raise eyebrows even further. Whether these people realize it or not, they are "having fun" essentially killing real people who are wearing a funny rubber mask, a rubber mask, I might add, placed on that real person by someone with a decidedly poor or warped view of those real people.
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I think this a serious oversimplification of the orc and goblin tropes. Those kinds of humanoids don't really line up with any particular culture or race in my opinion. They draw vaguely on concepts of barbarians, but that spans a range of anything from celt to mongol and they are such a hodgepodge in most settings, I just don't buy this argument. I've heard it before, I've seen it made well. I just don't share this conclusions about it. Others can and have made this case much better than me. I am not academic. But I also am always suspicious of "this thing is secretly evil" arguments when it comes to art. Again, it could be used in that way. I could see a setting where someone has them as stand-ins for something. But in my experience they are just goblins in most settings and pretty removed from anything in the real world. People can project what they want onto them, but in a lot of cases I think that is a matter of people bringing their own issues to the concept.
 

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I'm not a fan of horror movies, so that's about all that comes to mind. I think you'll find that, upon closer analysis, most horror movies feature either "really evil humans", or "incomprehensible aliens". Sometimes the former warped by the latter (Event Horizon, Heavy Metal, Time Bandits).

I would disagree. Dracula is hardly just an evil person or incomprehensible alien. Same with Frankenstein's monster or the wolf man. I am not saying all horror movies feature cosmic good and evil. But it is definitely something you see. And you often see creatures that are so evil, the heroes have no compunction in destroying them. I am not saying there is a 1-1 relationship. But there is this idea that the monster in the movie embodies evil and must be destroyed. And that seems to be a core concern in the debate about evil orcs: can something physically embody the cosmic force of evil in the setting. In most horror movies this is more metaphorical but it still plays out the same.
 
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I think there's a matter of poor comparisons here. Unique evil individuals are not entire evil races who presumably live, love, and make evil babies. Freddy, for example in the original lore, started out as a human serial killer (of children no less!), before apparently ascending to demonhood. (something D&D actually replicates with how demons work!) Jason Voorhees, for example is a perfectly human human (except in some cases where he comes back from the dead). Pennywise is an extra-dimensional fundamental element of chaos of death, he's not so much evil as an element of reality. Pinhead is a being who found ascension through BDSM. These two fall closer under Mistwell's "incomprehensible" definition rather than "evil".
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Okay, so would allow for a single evil goblin in a campaign, but not a legion of them? What I took that one goblin and cloned it? Does it matter if the clones can procreate? If they are all produced in a vat is it less of a problem for you?

I can understand if the trope just bothers you for some reason and you don't want to use it. I think it is little strange when people cast judgement on anyone who uses that kind of trope, regardless of the specifics of the setting. And I can't help but wonder if this isn't like so many other arguments in gaming where people have a gaming preference and try to spread it by shaming preferences that are different. I just feel like you really have to squint hard for this argument to make a lot of sense.
 

Celebrim

Legend
But are they alien and am I anthropomorphizing? I'm talking solely about humanoids. Who are basically humans who look different and have a different culture.

It seems to be coming down to whether humanoids in your game are inherently humans with bumps on their forehead or big ears or some such.

Or to put it another way, do your PC live in a 'Star Wars' world where no matter how differently shaped the alien thing is, it's not actually alien at all but just a funny looking human?

Because I think you are willing to concede that the xenomorphs from the movie 'Alien' are, if not easily classified as evil are at least easily classified as always enemies. So there is I think something that is a monster in your mind. You haven't banished the idea of implacable enemy entirely, because you always hedge that you are talking about 'humans'.

Even the 'people' of my game are not human.

For example, elves. Elves age 1/9th as slowly as humanity. They are inherently more individualistic and do not readily form close social associations or strong governments. Left to their own devices, elves would solve most conflicts with themselves by simply moving away from whatever irritated them. They have an inherent magical ability to commune with animals and plants from infanthood. They can process high tannin foods like acorns without special food processing. Many can empathically communicate with animals before they learn to talk, and could spend a decade toddling around the forest living off the land before they actually start talking with their parents. That gives them an entirely different take on family and society than humans, and an entirely different relationship to nature. They are an arboreal people, light of frame and lithe of limb, capable of climbing easily and sleeping on a tree limb comfortably. They are a twilight people with cat like eyes that can see far into the night but which are often dazzled by the direct sun. They can manufacture pretty much all their own essential nutrients and are quite capable of living off a vegan diet without much difficulty or making a special effort to acquire food stuffs like yeasts or legumes to get nutrients that are rare in planets. They are fragile and prone to disease, so they rarely live in dense populations. Their emotional life is fundamentally different than humans. Some things that humans feel great passion about, say sex and death, elves view coolly, while things that are intellectual for humans are matters of emotional passion for elves. An elf fundamentally needs to experience beauty in the same way a human needs to breathe or drink water. An elf confined to a dark dank place will die in a few days even if they have food and drank. They cannot be enslaved: they'll just die. They cannot be made to work in horrid conditions: they'll just die.

That's not human. It's a person, but it's not a human. And it's not just a person that has a different culture. They are biologically distinct and much of their culture has to be distinct from what humans consider normal.

Consider the Idreth, one of my homebrew races. Idreth have a collective consciousness. Unlike other races, they are usually reincarnated - something rare in humans. They are born knowing, or in the parlance of my world they are "Born Old". They dimly remember their past lives and more dimly the lives of all Idreth. They are capable of speech from infancy and they are capable and frequently do plot and plan their future lives as well as their present one, setting in motion multi-generational plans that they intend to be a part of. They live primarily to gain knowledge and unique experiences. Material goods have little value to them beyond their immediate utility. They are pragmatic and little concerned with aesthetics beyond what makes for good function. They are frail and avoid battle. They have never founded a single nation of their own, and the largest institutions that they control might be equivalent to monasteries or universities. They do not require or specially prize the association of their own kind, nor for that matter anything necessarily resembling what we'd think of as a social life, possibly because they are to some extent in communion with a mass mind. That's a person, but it's not human.

Goblins are at least as weird. They are the product of what we'd think of magical genetic manipulation. They have deliberately evolved themselves into something that even they think is grotesque because it's useful. They have distinct physical castes created to serve different functions. When you say that they are basically human, it would be like saying that a branch of humanity that had spent centuries genetically modifying itself until it no longer looked human, acted human, or had normal human motivations was human. In many ways, goblins are anti-elves. They can't process vegetable matter very well, and are obligate carnivores. They are robust and disease resistant and prefer to live in filthy warrens practically on top of each other. They are highly gregarious and social. Their eyes emit rays which bounce off of what they view and allow them to see like they had radar even in perfect darkness. By contrast, this means that they are nearly blind in full sunlight, viewing that world as being white the way we view darkness as black and scarcely able to see more than a few feet. They live very short lives, mature rapidly, breed quickly, and generally do not value individual life. What matters to them is the success of the group. Their own lives and the lives of others they treat as fairly cheap, perhaps because biologically speaking they are fairly cheap. They practice cannibalism because they can and perhaps need to, because meat can't be wasted. They kill and eat elves because they know they can't enslave them. The people of Korrel warn their children to be obedient "or the goblins might eat you". Well it is I think instructive that goblin parents warn their children to be good with the same warning, and they mean it.

That is a person, but it's not human.

And that's the races that are considered people in my game.
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
I would disagree. Dracula is hardly just an evil person or incomprehensible alien. Same with Frankenstein's monster or the wolf man. I am not saying all horror movies feature cosmic good and evil. But it is definitely something you see. And you often see creatures that are so evil, the heroes have no compunction in destroying them. I am not saying there is a 1-1 relationship. But there is this idea that the monster in the movie embodies evil and must be destroyed. And that seems to be a core concern in the debate about evil orcs: can something physically embody the cosmic force of evil in the setting. In most horror movies this is more metaphorical but it still plays out the same.

Dracula was a man, who gave in to evil. Frankenstein's Monster wasn't even evil. Dr. Frankenstein was a bit ghoulish and probably crazy, but he wasn't evil either. The Wolf Man is literally the definition of a normal person warped by an evil curse. Dracula being evil isn't the reason for killing him, it's all the evil deeds he's done with that power. The townsfolk only wanted to kill Frankenstein's Monster because he was big and scary. People wanted to kill the Wolf Man because while under the curse, he was a violent monster (not really evil tho).

Okay, so would allow for a single evil goblin in a campaign, but not a legion of them? What I took that one goblin and cloned it? Does it matter if the clones can procreate? If they are all produced in a vat is it less of a problem for you?
If we are to presume that no creature is born evil, and it simply does evil for (reasons) the method of its production matters little. What matters to me is that it's sentient and capable of understanding good and evil, and making a choice between good and evil. It may be ignorant knowing only evil, but that's the place for the good guy to go "Wait a sec, maybe we can help instead of kill."

I can understand if the trope just bothers you for some reason and you don't want to use it. I think it is little strange when people cast judgement on anyone who uses that kind of trope, regardless of the specifics of the setting. And I can't help but wonder if this isn't like so many other arguments in gaming where people have a gaming preference and try to spread it by shaming preferences that are different. I just feel like you really have to squint hard for this argument to make a lot of sense.
One of the biggest problems in today's society is that too many people believe that all preferences are equal. They're not.

Imagine if we took orcs out of the picture and replaced them with some IRL culture. Yes, it's still fantasy pretend I'll give you that, but it starts to beg the question of "Who would find a game centered around the idea that this IRL culture needs to be killed to be fun?" If we can ask that
question, then we can ask the same question of "If we put a rubber mask on these guys, is killing them for fun now okay?"
 

Lylandra

Adventurer
It seems to be coming down to whether humanoids in your game are inherently humans with bumps on their forehead or big ears or some such.

Or to put it another way, do your PC live in a 'Star Wars' world where no matter how differently shaped the alien thing is, it's not actually alien at all but just a funny looking human?

Because I think you are willing to concede that the xenomorphs from the movie 'Alien' are, if not easily classified as evil are at least easily classified as always enemies. So there is I think something that is a monster in your mind. You haven't banished the idea of implacable enemy entirely, because you always hedge that you are talking about 'humans'.

Even the 'people' of my game are not human.

For example, elves. Elves age 1/9th as slowly as humanity. They are inherently more individualistic and do not readily form close social associations or strong governments. Left to their own devices, elves would solve most conflicts with themselves by simply moving away from whatever irritated them. They have an inherent magical ability to commune with animals and plants from infanthood. They can process high tannin foods like acorns without special food processing. Many can empathically communicate with animals before they learn to talk, and could spend a decade toddling around the forest living off the land before they actually start talking with their parents. That gives them an entirely different take on family and society than humans, and an entirely different relationship to nature. They are an arboreal people, light of frame and lithe of limb, capable of climbing easily and sleeping on a tree limb comfortably. They are a twilight people with cat like eyes that can see far into the night but which are often dazzled by the direct sun. They can manufacture pretty much all their own essential nutrients and are quite capable of living off a vegan diet without much difficulty or making a special effort to acquire food stuffs like yeasts or legumes to get nutrients that are rare in planets. They are fragile and prone to disease, so they rarely live in dense populations. Their emotional life is fundamentally different than humans. Some things that humans feel great passion about, say sex and death, elves view coolly, while things that are intellectual for humans are matters of emotional passion for elves. An elf fundamentally needs to experience beauty in the same way a human needs to breathe or drink water. An elf confined to a dark dank place will die in a few days even if they have food and drank. They cannot be enslaved: they'll just die. They cannot be made to work in horrid conditions: they'll just die.

That's not human. It's a person, but it's not a human. And it's not just a person that has a different culture. They are biologically distinct and much of their culture has to be distinct from what humans consider normal.

Consider the Idreth, one of my homebrew races. Idreth have a collective consciousness. Unlike other races, they are usually reincarnated - something rare in humans. They are born knowing, or in the parlance of my world they are "Born Old". They dimly remember their past lives and more dimly the lives of all Idreth. They are capable of speech from infancy and they are capable and frequently do plot and plan their future lives as well as their present one, setting in motion multi-generational plans that they intend to be a part of. They live primarily to gain knowledge and unique experiences. Material goods have little value to them beyond their immediate utility. They are pragmatic and little concerned with aesthetics beyond what makes for good function. They are frail and avoid battle. They have never founded a single nation of their own, and the largest institutions that they control might be equivalent to monasteries or universities. They do not require or specially prize the association of their own kind, nor for that matter anything necessarily resembling what we'd think of as a social life, possibly because they are to some extent in communion with a mass mind. That's a person, but it's not human.

Goblins are at least as weird. They are the product of what we'd think of magical genetic manipulation. They have deliberately evolved themselves into something that even they think is grotesque because it's useful. They have distinct physical castes created to serve different functions. When you say that they are basically human, it would be like saying that a branch of humanity that had spent centuries genetically modifying itself until it no longer looked human, acted human, or had normal human motivations was human. In many ways, goblins are anti-elves. They can't process vegetable matter very well, and are obligate carnivores. They are robust and disease resistant and prefer to live in filthy warrens practically on top of each other. They are highly gregarious and social. Their eyes emit rays which bounce off of what they view and allow them to see like they had radar even in perfect darkness. By contrast, this means that they are nearly blind in full sunlight, viewing that world as being white the way we view darkness as black and scarcely able to see more than a few feet. They live very short lives, mature rapidly, breed quickly, and generally do not value individual life. What matters to them is the success of the group. Their own lives and the lives of others they treat as fairly cheap, perhaps because biologically speaking they are fairly cheap. They practice cannibalism because they can and perhaps need to, because meat can't be wasted. They kill and eat elves because they know they can't enslave them. The people of Korrel warn their children to be obedient "or the goblins might eat you". Well it is I think instructive that goblin parents warn their children to be good with the same warning, and they mean it.

That is a person, but it's not human.

And that's the races that are considered people in my game.

I stressed the humanoid and "basically human" aspects of these people in standard D&D to make things easier to communicate with the other posters in this thread who come from a very different outlook.

And to be honest, most D&D groups will play their elves like tall, long-lived, tree-hugging, nature-loving humans and their dwarves like stocky, beer-loving, underground-dwelling, cursing humans. That doesn't mean that I do that for my campaigns, but that's what I got from a lot of people.

Your people are definitely not "human", but they are sentient, intelligent beings and most of them are capable of making individual descisions. Also, they are really cool and well-designed, so kudos!

But they are also homebrew and definitely not standard D&D. What I'm trying to argue is that any "people" capable of making individual descisions, who are intelligent enough to be in the "human" range and who are sentient creatures should not be, per standard definition, born evil. Unless these individuals have some sort of planar background that kind of erases their free will. This is at its core a philosophical issue as it tackles the question on how to define peoplehood and how to deal with such beings.
 

rmcoen

Adventurer
In the series "The Dragon and the George" (IIRC), the author made a few setting-based comments that have stuck with me for years. Essentially - in the middle ages (the generic background timeframe/setting of most fantastic worlds), people don't travel. "Fare well" is the parting salutation because when a person leaves the confines of the "known world" (i.e. the village), they frequently never return. The world is a dangerous place; death -- through murder, injury, illness, mishap -- lies around every corner.

In this "real" and grim world, then, why would your average adventurer - by definition, a traveler, a person who subjects him-/her-self to the dangers of the road -- why would they be a pacifistic hero? Nonviolent folk did travel, but they did it in groups, and often with guards (paid or otherwise). Merely being willing to subject yourself to the dangers of "the wilds" makes you a hero -- rescuing someone lost in the woods is a story-worthy quest.

Throw in magic and many of the dangers of travel fall away. Slipping and breaking your leg isn't fatal when you or your buddy can slap some glowing hands on it and >poof< all better! But the bandits -- why go out of your way to capture them and take them to town for a "trial" and "prison" (superhero/modern thoughts)? If you take them back, they're going to be hung - they're bandits!


Having said all that, as a GM I always give full value for "defeating" enemies or the enemy's plans (esp. if I hand-wave an escape for a villain I want to reuse). The exception to this: if the "defeat" of the enemy just makes them someone else's problem. "Turn Undead" that just makes them head to some other village may save *this* one, but hasn't addressed the problem (minor reward); intentionally "aiming" the repulsed undead into a camp of bandits or marauding orcs, now that's a full credit reward, possibly for both groups. Convincing the BBEG's minions of the error of their ways is a full-credit reward; paying them to look the other way while you sneak in is a partial reward, as the minions are free to be a problem again.

I'll own being inconsistent; I don't object to non-violent solutions, but I have defined the world in my mind as being a violent place. I embrace black-and-white clarity in some circumstances while also subjecting the players to many shades of grey. You *know* the High Priestess is behind all the evils, but you can't prove it - you can't go killing her without significant legal consequences. (Sure, you can probably defeat every guardsman via game mechanics, but the "reality" of being an outlaw is more than killing guards.) On the other hand, the barbarians that slaughter the entire populations of outlying villages, they are fair game -- but dealing with the monsters invading *their* homelands (with or without violence!) might solve the barbarian invasion problem "non-violently". Many options.

I forget where I was going with this!
 

Dracula was a man, who gave in to evil. Frankenstein's Monster wasn't even evil. Dr. Frankenstein was a bit ghoulish and probably crazy, but he wasn't evil either. The Wolf Man is literally the definition of a normal person warped by an evil curse. Dracula being evil isn't the reason for killing him, it's all the evil deeds he's done with that power. The townsfolk only wanted to kill Frankenstein's Monster because he was big and scary. People wanted to kill the Wolf Man because while under the curse, he was a violent monster (not really evil tho).

I don't want to split hairs over this. My point was it isn't simply 'incomprehensible alien evil' and 'mundane human evil'. We could debate what Dracula is all day. Despite his past though, he is a vampire who must drink human blood to survive. To me that is more than just human evil, that is a primordial type of evil. I think both the monster and Doctor Frankenstein are evil. The monster is literally an animated creature made from human corpses and it is so filled with resentment and anger it kills a child. That to me, is pretty evil. It is more complex than a goblin for sure, and one of the cool things about it is how sympathetic the creature is in the book. But if killing a child isn't evil, nothing is.

But there are plenty of other examples in movies. Someone mentioned Xenomorphs. They are aliens but not in comprehensive. We understand their motivations and such. I think that is a fairly good comparison to goblins. They are not cosmic evil but they occupy a very similar space in the setting that goblins do in some fantasy worlds.

I suppose Zombies would be another example of something that exists in the setting to be killed. They are not a separate species or anything. But the effect is characters mow down endless hordes of them. And while zombies often can carry all kinds of meaning, they don't have to. They can just be undead hordes that kill you if you don't kill them.
 
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One of the biggest problems in today's society is that too many people believe that all preferences are equal. They're not.

This is a pretty big assumption. I don't know what you have in mind here, and I don't want to get into a real world political discussion here, but on the list of things that trouble me about today's world, 'people believe that all preferences are equal' is so far down on the list of what worries me. If we are literally just talking about things like movie and book preferences, I'd say it isn't a problem.

Imagine if we took orcs out of the picture and replaced them with some IRL culture. Yes, it's still fantasy pretend I'll give you that, but it starts to beg the question of "Who would find a game centered around the idea that this IRL culture needs to be killed to be fun?" If we can ask that
question, then we can ask the same question of "If we put a rubber mask on these guys, is killing them for fun now okay?"

Again, I never said it couldn't be an issue. The specific context is going to matter. But I think you are engaging in a lot of projection and mind reading and you are assuming things about the people who enjoy this stuff that just isn't true. Something can look dark, troubling, sinister, wicked, sexually indulgent, but be enjoyed for all kinds of reasons. I think when you get into the business of policing this stuff, especially when you claim to have the secret cypher for understanding what it all really means, you are treading on dangerous ground. All I know is I've encountered this my whole life, where you enjoy something another person finds questionable and they think it speaks volumes about you. Then everything they claim it means, turns out to have no connection to why you enjoy the stuff. I learned that from the kinds of music I liked growing up, the kinds of movies I watched, the games I played etc. If you don't like it, I say fine. I am just not into this idea that because you have a bad feeling about a piece of art or entertainment, that means people who make or enjoy it are morally bad.

When it comes to borrowing real world culture, it really comes down to the specifics. I've read things where the evil hordes are clearly stand-ins for groups the author doesn't like, and as a reader that is going to bother me. I've also read things where the author clearly just liked the look of a culture for his or her bad guys. It is very difficult to make cultures from scratch. If a setting has evil cultures, it is likely the person making it is going to have to borrow features from somewhere in the real world (they might take disparate elements of a variety of cultures or take a bunch from a single culture). I think it is done for different reasons and different purposes though. And saying it is always bad is enormously reductive and simplistic.
 
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If we are to presume that no creature is born evil, and it simply does evil for (reasons) the method of its production matters little. What matters to me is that it's sentient and capable of understanding good and evil, and making a choice between good and evil. It may be ignorant knowing only evil, but that's the place for the good guy to go "Wait a sec, maybe we can help instead of kill."

I don't think this assumption is universal when it comes to goblins in settings. If there is cosmic good and evil, you can have creatures who are born evil. I think for some campaigns, these goblins are not capable of making a choice, they are driven to evil by their nature. Just like a demon might be. I can certainly see the attraction of making them more complex. And I'd prefer them to be myself. But I also can understand the attraction of the imagery of swaths of evil goblins. Again, my games are probably a lot closer to your's in terms of morality. I just don't mistake the morality of my settings for my own. I can run a setting based on Daoist cosmology or Buddhist cosmology and not worry about how that reflects on my own beliefs, actions, etc. I can run a Manichean-like setting where some god is the source of all things good and some other god is the source of all things evil without feeling that I am corrupted by imagining such a place.
 

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