Killing In The Name Of Advancement

While I'm not much of a fan of the song (and I didn't care for the movie it came from), I've been hearing a few commercials lately using the Bonnie Tyler song "I Need A Hero," and it has triggered thoughts on heroes and heroism in gaming.

While I'm not much of a fan of the song (and I didn't care for the movie it came from), I've been hearing a few commercials lately using the Bonnie Tyler song "I Need A Hero," and it has triggered thoughts on heroes and heroism in gaming.

Photo by Jessica Podraza on Unsplash

We have a problem with being heroic in a number of role-playing games, but most particularly in fantasy games where the ideas of advancement and betterment for characters are built around the concept of killing. In games with alignment systems, this doubles down because alignment becomes a mechanical expression of morality in those games. So, not only does this mean that killing is the method in these games for your character to become better at what they do, killing also becomes the moral choice for dealing with situations.

This is what causes the problem with being heroic, because in my mind being a hero and killing are at cross purposes with each other. I get that there are a number of different ways to define heroes, but for me that definition has been informed by my years of comic book reading. Superman. Captain America. Spider-Man. Yes, each of these characters has had stories where they have had to kill, but the focus of those stories wasn't about the killing, as much as they were about the impact that the killings had upon the characters. I am not saying that heroes are never going to kill, but they do it only as a last resort and their characters aren't defined by the action.

This is at the root of my disconnect with many fantasy role-playing games, and much fantasy fiction. I like characters who are heroes. The fantasy fiction that I interact with tends to come from comic books. Travis Morgan of Warlord. The Nightmaster. Heroes can be complicated, they can be conflicted, but they can still be basically good. For me, that can get lost in translation with games.

I define a lot of games as being heroic that others might not. I think that the underlying struggle of Call of Cthulhu and games like Trail of Cthulhu are inherently heroic. In this style of Lovecraftian gaming, the characters are engaged in a struggle that they will likely not survive, not because they want to be a part of that struggle, but because they feel that they must. I think that is the core of heroic characters: they are motivated to take action, regardless of their personal safety, because they know that the action has to be taken. I know that this is an untraditional interpretation of Lovecraftian games, but it is an interpretation that makes the games easier on those who aren't as much of a fan of horror, or horror gaming.

Games like Doctor Who: Adventures In Time And Space are at the opposite pole of the games that reward killing. Violence is deemphasized in the game by making it literally the last thing that occurs during a round. Characters are encouraged to resolve conflict through methods other than violence, much like in the television show. Doctor Who, as a television show, can be a weird example of heroism, however, because while the Doctor preaches that violence shouldn't be the answer, and he himself is mostly directly non-violent in his responses, he is also know to surround himself with Companions who can react violently on his behalf (Captain Jack Harkness, I am looking at you, along with the many UNIT soldiers who accompanied him in the old days), and sometimes with his blessing. The Doctor is, at times, moved to violence, and even to killing, but much like with the super-heroic examples that I mentioned above, the stories about him doing this are about the whys of his violent reactions and his killing, and how they impact the character. You could argue that a lot of the stories of the NuWho era are about exploring the impact that the deaths that he was responsible for during the Time War have weighed upon him, and shaped his psyche.

I think that I would have less of a problem with the systems that build advancement upon violence and killing, if there were more of an exploration of how these acts can impact the psychology of the characters, rather than just giving them an additional to hit bonus. If you've been in a fight in real life, you know that even when you win a fight your mind still works you over. Violence is not fun.

Yes, I know the counter argument: people do not want "realism" in their games, they want an escape. This can often boil down to wanting an escape from repercussions of actions, more than anything else.

So, how do you move role-playing games that rely on killing for advancement away from that? When Runequest first came out in 1978, this was one of the things that the game set out to "fix." In Runequest your character gets better by doing things, by using their skills. Yes, this includes combat skills, but you won't get more points for your survival skills because you killed some orcs at one point. When you use a skill in Runequest, you mark it, and then later make a roll to see if it is improved or not. It is a clean and elegant method that allows a character to get better at things by doing.

With games like Fate Core, or earlier examples like Green Ronin's SRD-derived True 20 system, would use a more story-driven method for advancement. The idea behind this is that, as characters move through a campaign, doing things, making rolls for things and, yes, sometimes even killing, that this is what should be the determinations for change to, and advancement of, player characters. In Fate this is called reaching milestones. The characters achieving a milestone in a campaign, which can be as straightforward as defeating an enemy, this should trigger a change in those characters. For example, if a character in a Fate game has an aspect of "Seeking Revenge Against The Sheriff," then defeating that sheriff would be an important milestone for the character in that campaign, and at the very least should trigger being able to change that aspect to something else, perhaps even something tied to the aftermath of that milestone like "I Guess I Am The Sheriff Now."
The sad truth with some fantasy role-playing games is that defeat just isn't enough. In games like the early editions of Dungeons & Dragons, you get less experience for defeating a foe than you would for killing them. That means a slower advancement for your character. In many ways, this is a punishment for taking a less violent course of action for your characters.

I have long held up the Karma system from TSR's classic Marvel Super-Heroes game is not only one of the earliest set of rules that attempted genre simulation, rather than simulation of physics, but it is the single best emulation of the pre-Watchmen, pre-Dark Knight Returns genre of super-hero comics. It punished you outright for killing. If your hero killed someone, they lost all of their Karma. It was worse if you had a super-group with pooled Karma, because you lost all of that pooled Karma as well. However, Karma also made you think about your character's short term successes versus their long term. Karma was a pool of point that were not only spent to improve your character, but you used them as a currency to improve dice rolls for task resolution.

Every time that you spent Karma to succeed at a task, that meant there would be some advancement that you could not take in the future, unless you worked your character harder to earn more Karma to make up for the expense. Add this to the fact that Karma had to be spent before you rolled your dice, and you could be making a literal crap shoot for your character.

However, this worked for Marvel Super-Heroes for a couple of reasons. First, comic book super-heroes really don't change a lot in comics. And when they do change, the changes are often rolled back the next time there is a new creative team on a book. Back in the 60s and 70s, when people other than Stan Lee began writing books at Marvel Comics he would refer to this as the "illusion of change." The idea was that you give just enough change to a character to suggest growth, but not so much change that readers can no longer recognize the core elements of a character. This is the basis of the assumption that, with comics, no matter how much things might change in the short term, sooner or later everything will go back to more or less of a reset point.

Secondly, Karma enforces heroic action. A part of heroic action, much like I mentioned above when talking about heroism in Lovecraftian games, is sacrifice. Karma is a sacrificial element of your character's heroism in the Marvel Super-Heroes game. You spend Karma before a dice roll, which means that you don't even know if you will need it or not, but the action that your character is attempting is so important that you are willing to make the sacrifice. You have to balance short term success against long term goals. You might even be able to argue that the Sanity system in Call of Cthulhu is a similar system of sacrifice to Karma. You sacrifice your character's sanity in order to attempt to drive Chthonic creatures away and "save" the world, even if it is only for the short term.

Unfortunately, the shift in sensibilities in comics that came not long after the Marvel Super-Heroes game came out made these ideas seem corny to a lot of people. Not for me, because even though I am a bigger fan of DC Comics than Marvel Comics, the heroism of the game really appealed to me (and echoes of it still do). It isn't coincidence that the games that drew me away from games like Dungeons & Dragons were Marvel Super-Heroes and Call of Cthulhu. They both had approaches that appealed to my desire for heroism, plus comics and horror fiction were (and still are) the media that I consume the most.

The nice thing about having so many different types of role-playing games available is that everyone can find the games that suit their agenda for playing games. None of these approaches are better than the others, but they can help us to find the ways to have more effective approach to what we want out of gaming. On some levels, even as a kid, I was unsatisfied with role-playing, but as more games started coming out I realized that it wasn't the activity itself that was causing the difficulty but that the approach of the game we were playing didn't suit what I wanted out of RPGs. That was easily fixed once I was able to find games that did better suit me, and I am still playing role-playing games after almost 40 years as a gamer.
 

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Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Because
To the first part: if it is indeed alien and therefore incomprehensible, then our puny human morality is inapplicable. We can't say an incomprehensible being is evil, because it's incomprehensible!

Except I never said incomprehensible. I just said it was alien. As in vastly different. Not "incomprehensible". I mean you use the word twice and end it with an exclamation mark, as if that was my position? Not an legitimate approach shidaku. You want to exaggerate for effect, that's fine. but don't call a position garbage and then when you do finally reply you strawman it. If you have a response to what I wrote, let's hear it already.

To say that we know such a thing is indeed evil, would be to say that it is actually compreensible by our puny human morality. That's why it's a garbage argument. You can't on one hand saying X is incomprehensible and then on the other hand say X is also evil. The latter means you comprehend it. The former means you don't.

We can't comprehend things which are alien? Really, that's your position, that if something is alien this means by definition it cannot be comprehended? Where do you get that kind of standard?

Here are the actual words I used again that you were calling "garbage" and I will let you tell me where I say or imply this is something we cannot "comprehend", "[you're] anthropomorphizing an alien creature. We don't live in a world where Gods walk on the planet and literally create new creatures from magic. Their genetics, along with much of their physics, literally doesn't work like ours does. We humans are not born with an alignment - but a fantasy setting can posit, as part of the setting assumptions, that some alien creatures are born with an alignment. Much like they're born with magic. "

We can comprehend things like animals without anthropromorphizing them, right? You understood the example of a deity in D&D creating a creature from magic and their genetics works different from our world, right? You understood what I meant when an alien creature is born with an alignment, right? I mean, if you don't understand that's fine I can offer further explanation. But you're claiming I said it's not comprehensible - I never once said or implied that. So again, how about you reply to my actual position, rather than this one you seem to have manufactured so that you could call it dumb and garbage?

To the second part: Because it's an extension of the first argument. "We here in Reality Land can't comprehend what Fantasy Land is like!"...but, you just made an argument of how things in Fantasy Land may be. Which is? Can we comprehend Fantasy Land or can't we?

Wow. So I have a choice now. I can assume either you really honestly thought I was making an argument that we cannot comprehend fantasy land, despite my never saying anything like that, or you're intentionally inserting that false claim into my words. I am going to assume you're just mistaken. So, now that it's been clarified for you, please stop doing that. It's not an issue of comprehension. Everyone here is plenty familiar with the fantasy concepts to comprehend the concepts I am describing. If you're having trouble with it just as and I will give you lots more explanation and examples so you can comprehend it as well.

These are bad arguments that tend to be made when *thing in question* has a fundamental flaw that is difficult to explain away as anything other than a fundamental flaw. So arguments like "Well we must just not be able to understand how this flaw is actually a feature!" Or...maybe Occams Razor is right once again, and the simplest answer must be the truth: this thing is flawed.

If I had ever made that argument you might be right. As I never made that argument, it's only you making that self-described bad argument.

To this I argue: silence is consent. Doing nothing is just as bad as supporting it. You knew it would do evil, eventually and did nothing.

That's the problem with the "born evil" problem with D&D. If it's evil yet at the moment not taking evil actions and you know that once it takes action, the only actions it will take are evil ones, then the only good thing to do is to prevent it. Otherwise, by allowing evil to survive and take actions in the future, you have allowed evil to happen.

Sure that's a fair approach for people of certain alignments. Another fair one would be to imprison them, or disable their ability to do harm, or seek magical or divine intervention to change them. Obviously my point was those alternative approaches don't work than evil action is imminent. But if it's not imminent and you have time? Then yeah, there are other actions you can try to pursue in that setting to try and stop them from committing evil acts in the future.

This is demonstrated with Epicurus's "God trilemma", see also: The Problem of Evil.
Granted, the heros may not be all-powerful, but if a good character does not take an active role in stopping evil, they have rather directly too, allowed evil to happen.

Yes. I believe this is a built-in conceit of D&D's implied setting, that heroes of good must take an active role in stopping evil. I don't view that as a design flaw.

This generates the "killing baby orcs is a good thing" problem whereby an otherwise lawful good character is faced with the "problem of evil" and must choose to either kill babies, who must by their evil nature take evil actions, or stop being considered a good person because they allowed evil to flourish.

Well given the baby is not going to imminently commit an evil act, you have time to see another resolution which may likely be divine or arcane in nature to deal with the inherent evil of that being. Those "alien" concepts of magic (which I know you comprehend) also exist in this setting. I am sure you'd understand that for example a zombie baby is inherently evil, right? That the explanation of a negative energy animus attached to the body which gives it merely a semblance of being a human creature but it is not actually human is a concept you grok, right? Not too alien to comprehend, but zombies are a concept of being an alien-type creature to us, right?

----------
Bringing this back to the OP, this is one of the precise reasons that games like D&D view killing as a primary solution to conflict as opposed to other games. Because quite literally, D&D and its descendants have set up such a terrible dichotomy of "Either you're good and you kill orcs, or you're allowing evil to flourish." There really is no other choice than to kill.

The assumption it's a "terrible" dichotomy is what I question. That this is a problem. That rational, good people cannot enjoy and even prefer that method.
 
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This is demonstrated with Epicurus's "God trilemma", see also: The Problem of Evil.
Granted, the heros may not be all-powerful, but if a good character does not take an active role in stopping evil, they have rather directly too, allowed evil to happen.

This is way over thinking the issue in my opinion. I like philosophy fine but if your argument that enjoying a gaming play style is wrong hinges on something like this (a question tables might be oblivious to, might address in a bunch of different ways, or never have heard of)...I think it’s too deep for elf games. These are questions philosophers grapple with. Also if Epicurus did have an opinion on gaming, I doubt he’d care how evil your orcs are. He’d be much more concerned that folks have spent hours and days arguing minutiae over trivial RPG details. And he’d probably be a lot more interested in what you do away from the table of imaginary events.
 

Flexor the Mighty!

18/100 Strength!
Well sure. But that's one of those self reflection moments: Who makes a game with sentient creatures that we have to say are "born evil" just to justify killing them? Shouldn't the fact that they're waging war against us be enough?

Someone running a beer an pretzels dungeon bashing game that isn't really interested in examining the morality of the evil species usually encountered in said dungeon? I don't game to try and examine real world issues or understand the human condition via Elves and Orcs. If you want to assume its really a thin vernier over a racist fantasy about killing marginalized communities of color thats up to you. Based on some of your later posts I assume that is what you are trying to get at but its possible I'm just not understanding you.

In any event in the edition I'm running orcs are minions of chaos, aka evil. Though there may be "defective" ones that have some kind of free will out there if I felt it necessary to have one like that for an encounter.
 
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Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
I hate to suggest that there may indeed be forms of badwrongfun, but I raise some serious eyebrows and some of the ways people talk about games of "kill the orc". I find it strange that people can "have fun" in games that are about little more than killing as many other humanoids (of the wrong color of course) as possible. The fact that many fantasy races stem from stereotypes, exaggerations or mockeries of real people makes me raise eyebrows even further. Whether these people realize it or not, they are "having fun" essentially killing real people who are wearing a funny rubber mask, a rubber mask, I might add, placed on that real person by someone with a decidedly poor or warped view of those real people.

I just wanted to quote this section in isolation. I don't think I've changed the context in any way by quoting it as I have. Do you?

Assuming it's in context, is it fair to paraphrase your statement as, "If you have fun playing D&D as little more than killing evil humanoid races, this tends to indicate you might be an actual racist"?
 
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aramis erak

Legend
Imagine if we took orcs out of the picture and replaced them with some IRL culture. Yes, it's still fantasy pretend I'll give you that, but it starts to beg the question of "Who would find a game centered around the idea that this IRL culture needs to be killed to be fun?" If we can ask that
question, then we can ask the same question of "If we put a rubber mask on these guys, is killing them for fun now okay?"
Out general entertainment industry has found a few cultures for which it's perfectly acceptable to kill them for the entertainment value: Nazis, Spartans, and Soviets.

3 evil cultures, but cultures comprised of people who thought what they were doing was good. Still, the jackbooted Nazi has become the archetype of evil... see also Grand Moff Tarkin, General Hux, M. Bison, and several others as implementations outside a WWII context.

Few would identify themselves as evil. I know a few who do; but even they are doing "what [they] feel is right." Even in evil human cultures, the average member thinks of themselves as a moral being. Even the ones dehumanizing others, keeping the others as property.

A culture which might arise from a species with a biologically hard wired response of "It's not bigger and it's a threat, kill it" (think wolverines) is likely to be one we'd ID as evil. And in most fantasy games, Goblins are, as in their Tolkien progenitor, hard wired for violent responses.
 
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TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
The real problem with this article is that "Holding Out for a Hero" is objectively one of the greatest songs ever.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Out general entertainment industry has found a few cultures for which it's perfectly acceptable to kill them for the entertainment value: Nazis, Spartans, and Soviets.
I've seen some pretty sympathetic portrayals of Soviets.

But I'll add ninjas: if you don't finish 'em off, they're just going to commit suicide for failing, anyway.
 

Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.
The real problem with this article is that "Holding Out for a Hero" is objectively one of the greatest songs ever.

I'm not sure it's even Bonnie Tyler's best song -- I've long preferred "Total Eclipse of the Heart".

--
Pauper
 

Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.
I've browsed through the last few pages of discussion on alignment, and it surprises me that nobody has noticed that Fifth Edition has basically abandoned the field on alignment. You can use alignment in 5E, but the kind of weirdness that results from doing so pretty much convinces most DMs to just abandon the concept, which seems to be precisely what the designers of the game intended when they minimized its role in game mechanics.

Yes, the Player's Handbook does have that paragraph about 'evil creatures being created by the evil gods to serve them', but that really isn't supported within the fiction of the D&D cosmos. Drow elves are evil according to the Monster Manual, but Driz'zt still canonically exists. Players are explicitly allowed to create orc, goblin, hobgoblin, and yuan-ti heroes (based on their inclusion in Volo's Guide), and no rule requires those characters to be of evil alignment. (The only restrictive rule on monstrous player races that exists in 'official' D&D, in the Adventurers League, only restricts monstrous races based on what factions they can join, and explicitly forbids at least one 'evil' race from being evil by preventing it from enlisting in any faction that allows evil alignments -- kobold PCs, for example, can't be evil in Adventurers League, because all kobolds must belong to the Emerald Enclave, which doesn't allow evil members.) Heck, if hints relating to planar races are true, there might well be planar PC races in an upcoming book (supporting the old Planescape setting) that explicitly go against the Player's Handbook assertion that planar races are exemplars of their alignment type -- that, if a devil stopped being evil, it would stop being a devil. (Or perhaps the 'planar races' in that book will be treated as tieflings in the Player's Handbook are -- not actually 'planar', but simply variant humans with a planar being in their ancestry.)

This leads to one of a handful of conclusions:

1) The DM could run the game as-written, where NPC races identified as evil in the Monster Manual are hated and feared for that reason, unless the race happens to be played by a player, in which case none of that animosity spills over to the player character because of the giant 'PC' sign floating above his head everywhere he goes. (Interestingly, you could hardly ask for a better game-mechanical implementation of the concept of 'privilege' in an RPG.)

2) The DM could enforce the PH admonitions on alignment onto player characters as well as NPCs, justifying it based on the explicit text of the Player's Handbook's alignment rules. When taken alongside the same book's stated call for tolerance for PC choices related to sexuality and gender identity, this leads to a very odd ethical 'mission statement' for 5e D&D: Sexism bad, racism surprisingly OK.

3) The DM could simply ignore what the PH has to say on alignment, which is much easier than it would otherwise appear based on alignment having been removed from just about every other mechanic related to the game. Previous editions of the game restricted character classes by alignment (the paladin, monk, and even ranger are examples, depending on what edition you're looking at), but 5e removes these. Previous editions had spells (from divinations like detect evil and know alignment to spells that actually damaged or hindered characters based on alignment like dictum and dispel evil) and magic items (from the robes of the arch-magi that appeared white, gray, or black depending on which alignment they buffed to weapons that did extra damage against enemies of specific alignment types) that explicitly interacted with alignment; nearly all of these interactions have been removed for 5e. (I'd say 'all', but I can't be certain that at least one spell or item still maintains some legacy interaction with alignment, simply based on it being the path of least resistance to publication.)

Of course, if the DM is ignoring alignment as-written in the PH, then all arguments on in-game morality or ethics based on a character's or monster's alignment are irrelevant, because, without explicit mechanics in the rules and without a DM's adjudication, alignment has no meaning in a D&D game -- it simply becomes yet another empty justification (akin to "we've always been at war with Eastasia") to allow players to act out violent fantasies and yet still maintain the illusion of being a hero.

I think that last bit is why both Chris Helton and I would be curious to see what John Tynes would do with a 2.0 version of Power Kill, and especially what it would say about how much that illusion of heroic violence has begun appearing in everyday life, rather than just within popular fictional narratives.

--
Pauper
 


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