Kinda changing rules without telling players.

[MarauderX]

The way I run things is to let the players know that PCs know some of the obvious things that others would know, such as vampires feed on blood. However, I also remind them that some is fact, some is fiction in the world I run (homebrew) and not everything works the same way. If something like spells are different I tell the casters upfront about it, but if it is about some critter they have never encountered before then they should have no way of knowing what has been modified or not. I also let the players know that the XP of such encounters has been modified to match, and that quiets up the munchkins pretty quick.

 

[Rackhir]

2. I could have done that but part of my reasoning for doing this is I don't want them to know all the rules. Once they know all the rules it becomes a math game. By not knowing the rules in this area (an area their characters shouldnt know anyways) you return some of the mystery we all had when playing DnD for that first time years ago and every foe was a new unknown.

Telling them that the rules are different is not the same as telling them what the rules are. There is a implied contract between the players and the DM, that there are rules that the game is played by. Changing those rules without even mentioning that they have been changed, violates that implied agreement as far as I am concerned.

You do have the right to change the rules as you see fit, but I do feel quite strongly that you have an obligation to at least inform them that things are not going to be standard and to make it clear that they are not going to know what they are.

Otherwise it looks like you are changing things in the middle of the game simply to screw them (Note - I'm not accusing you of that). We've all played with people like that and nobody likes it. I suspect that sort of feeling is behind much of the "whining".

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Telling them that the rules are different is not the same as telling them what the rules are. There is a implied contract between the players and the DM, that there are rules that the game is played by. Changing those rules without even mentioning that they have been changed, violates that implied agreement as far as I am concerned.

You do have the right to change the rules as you see fit, but I do feel quite strongly that you have an obligation to at least inform them that things are not going to be standard and to make it clear that they are not going to know what they are.

Otherwise it looks like you are changing things in the middle of the game simply to screw them (Note - I'm not accusing you of that). We've all played with people like that and nobody likes it. I suspect that sort of feeling is behind much of the "whining".

I dont agree because these are rules that players should not know as rules.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I dont agree because these are rules that players should not know as rules.

Difference of opinion, I guess. I believe a DM has every right to change monsters, but not rules--without the players' knowledge.

Something that I consider is that, even if my 2nd-level party has never fought were-rats, somebody somewhere has, and with bards in the world, word gets around. The PCs may not know that were-rats have 10/silver damage reduction, but they'd know that magic isn't the only thing you have to worry about when dealing with creatures that ignore damage. They'd know that stories tell of creatures vulnerable to silver, cold iron, or even weapons of rare and exotic jade. Etc. etc. They'd know that even the most powerfully magical weapons, if not made of these sometimes common substances, are ignored by certain beasts.

I suppose I simply don't see it as metagaming for a player/PC to know the rules of the game. I see the rules as the "physics"....the "laws of reality" of my world. Those are things they should know. Now specifics, such a whether a certain were-rat clan is vulnerable to silver, or perhaps cold iron due to their fae blood, are my pervue. But the basic rules of the game belong to the players as much as the DM.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Difference of opinion, I guess. I believe a DM has every right to change monsters, but not rules--without the players' knowledge.

Something that I consider is that, even if my 2nd-level party has never fought were-rats, somebody somewhere has, and with bards in the world, word gets around. The PCs may not know that were-rats have 10/silver damage reduction, but they'd know that magic isn't the only thing you have to worry about when dealing with creatures that ignore damage. They'd know that stories tell of creatures vulnerable to silver, cold iron, or even weapons of rare and exotic jade. Etc. etc. They'd know that even the most powerfully magical weapons, if not made of these sometimes common substances, are ignored by certain beasts.

I suppose I simply don't see it as metagaming for a player/PC to know the rules of the game. I see the rules as the "physics"....the "laws of reality" of my world. Those are things they should know. Now specifics, such a whether a certain were-rat clan is vulnerable to silver, or perhaps cold iron due to their fae blood, are my pervue. But the basic rules of the game belong to the players as much as the DM.

You miss the point

1. The only thing a player can argue that his character automatically knows is the material in the PHB. Even that is limited though, a half-orc barbarian better not be quoting exact information on high level arcane spells.

2. There is no such things as the DnD "laws of Physics" the DR rules are meta rules created to easily control the idea of DR. It has no bearing on characters in the game world. To them it means a were-creature instantly heals a good amount if not all of a wound if it is not created with silver. End of story.

 

[Victim]

Since you started using the new DR rules, then you should have given the guy with magic weapon the chance to switch it out for that change material type spell.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Since you started using the new DR rules, then you should have given the guy with magic weapon the chance to switch it out for that change material type spell.

Few Points

1. I had no idea what spells he selected for the day.

2. This all happened in one day. Unless the player was cheating big time he should have had that magic weapon spell selected and memorized that morning hours before anyone knew they were going to fight were-rats.

3. I would never allow a low level cleric spell that allows you to change what material your weapon is made out of. That is way too twinkie for me to accept.

 

[Tsyr]

I dont agree because these are rules that players should not know as rules.

See, I disagree with this basic premise. There are no rules a player *shouldn't* know. There are some he may not *have* to know, but none he *shouldn't.*.

Someone else mentioned the implied contract of trust between player and DM, and this is very true. Part of keeping trust is knowing that certain rules. If the players are kept ignorant of said rules, it erodes the trust... they have no way of knowing you aren't just making stuff up on the fly to make things harder for them.

 

[Arnwyn]

You're in the right, Doc. What you did was fine.

IMO, the players should know everything in the PHB (I'm fine with that), and they are absolutely entitled to know beforehand if there are any changes in the PHB, and what specifically those changes are.

However, IMO, the DM is free to make *whatever* changes he wants within the DMG and MM, and does not have to tell the players anything. (As long as they are reasonable for any right-thinking rational human - no "this is my immune-to-everything monster and it kills you all. Play again?". Duh.) The players do not need to know what is in those books to effectively play their characters - they can learn just fine through their experiences during gameplay.

 

[Mallus]

I think you did fine Doc...

...nothing unfair about it. An inexperienced character just learned something about the art of monster-fightening in your world. Where's the problem?

I really disagree with the notion that players should be privy to all house rules from the start. All they need be informed about is their basic class abilites {and how they've been modified}.

Part of the fun of the game is exploring/discovering the world and learning how to interact with it, learning what works and what doesn't.

The only thing a DM needs to be is consistant. You've made your ruling about DR and lycanthropes. Now stick to it.