Kits versus 3E...

[Larcen]

That's a neat trick. I'd like to hear how you managed that...

Easy. He had an 18 STR and took martial weapon proficientcy, Greatsword. That gave him an 8-18 damage potential at first level.

Ok, maybe I exaggerated a little by saying he did close to 20 points of damage consistently. But most times he rolled in the teens. Lucky rolls aside, it's amazing a 1st level cleric can even do this.

I am old timer who started way back in '78 with 1E. Amazing how times have changed. But is this pre-occupation that 3E has with escalations of power a GOOD thing? Maybe for the Dragonball Z generation. (Sorry, that was uncalled for. )

I realize I didn't have to build my cleric like this. But my point is that I could. And the party needed more front-line people.

 

[Henry]

...It's just a point of annoyance that if I did want to take that subclassy title and it's abilities, it won't be available for many a level...If I decide my fighter's a bounty hunter as a character concept, whammo, that's what I consider him. It would be nice, though, to have the Bounty Hunter kit available from first level rather than 12th, if I wanted it. 2E does that, 3E doesn't, requiring you to follow the concept in other ways, such as feat selection.

I'd like to take a look at the 2nd edition kits for just a second.

Looking at the Swashbuckler kit, a person taking this kit receives the following:

-Spiffy Name
-Extra Weapon Proficiency Slots, with which he may specialize in his weapon of choice
-Bonus nonweapon proficiencies for etiquette and tumbling
-special abilities, including a bonus to armor class, a bonus on his reactions from the opposite sex, and a reduction to his cost for buying skills in "roguish" skills.

Now, could this be recreated in 3E?

Going the fighter route, you gain all necessary weapon proficiencies at first level. The weapon specialization can be replaced by weapon focus (going with the idea that the differences in power balance between the two editions necessaitates restructuring specialization). You can take proficiencies in Etiquette and Tumbling easily at first level, and be basically proficient with them. The fighter, gaining extra feats, can take feats which alter his ability to be hit, such as the dodge feat. Using feats, even the bonus reactions can be emulated by taking a proficiency that increases skills in diplomacy and bluff. The reduction in rogue skills comes in 3E by way of multiclassing to the rogue class, attainable by second level.

Can we attain this by starting as a first level rogue? We will not be as close on the martial side of our goal, but we have closer application on the skill-side of our goal. We have unparalleled social grace and charm and acrobatic ability, but we start off merely proficient with our weapons, instead of having a bonus with them.


So, we have the ability to take close approximations to everything that the swashbuckler received in 2nd edition, with differences to represent differences in power balance between the two games. (In 3E, one cannot start off being highly proficient in both skills and arms, but can attain such by gaining levels.)

Taking the bounty hunter, it is even easier to fill. Bounty hunters gained a "non-thief" weapon, tracking, and a spiffy title. You can have ALL of these things as a 1st level Rogue in D&D - except for the title.

The only thing that 3E cannot give that 2E can, is a title. This is why it is hard for me to see your quandry.

 

[barsoomcore]

Wait a minute, wait a minute, I am just about to be brilliant!

CLASS TEMPLATES

Holy crap, I can't be the first person to think this one up. Class Templates. Templates you apply to qualifying classes.

For example, the Urban Template

Urban Dweller (Template)
"Urban" is a class template that can be applied to any class with a Fighter BAB progression. Classes with this template apply the title "Urban" before their class name.

An urban class uses all of the base class' statistics and abilities except as noted here.

Hit Dice: Same as base class
Saves: An Urban class gets a Weak Fortitude save progression and a strong Will save progression.
Skills: An Urban class gets at least 4 skill points + Int bonus per level. If the base class already gets 4 or more skill points per level, the Urban class gets the same number of skill points as the base class. An Urban class gets to add any two of the following skills to their class list: Appraise, Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge. An Urban class must remove from their class list the following skills: Jump, Wilderness Lore.
Feats: Same as base class

Okay, so I just threw that together and it probably has holes like Space Swiss Cheese, but you get the idea.

Huh? Huh?

 

[Henry]

I like it - this hearkens back to the recipes idea of Ryan Dancey a couple fo years ago.

 

[Marius Delphus]

Kudos barsoomcore, your idea encompasses the very essence of 2E kits: a "template" that lays over a character's class, offering a few tweaks at 1st level that you couldn't get with "just" the core class. Ideally, a kit is supposed to be (the 2E equivalent of) ECL+0, but many of the published kits (and an untold number of Internet-published kits ) are thought to have fallen short of that ideal.

Ryan's recipe idea would have looked similar, I'm guessing. I only wish it'd been implemented in the splatbooks. Anyone care to guess how many recipes we'd have seen by now, in addition to prestige classes and feats?

 

[barsoomcore]

*takes bows, blows kisses to the girls in the balcony*

My mom says I'm a genius. Must be true.

I was also thinking of such a beast as Spell Templates. Dunno quite how those would work... but I like the idea.

Why should creatures get all the Templatey fun?

Okay, so now that I've had my brilliant idea, where do I go to get the money and hot chicks?

 

[WizarDru]

What's the downside to it, the changed saves? It looks like something for nothing. Am I missing the downside? More skill points, a different save progression, and some bonuses.

How does this work after the first level? What happens with multiclassing? Let's say I take an urban fighter, and then multiclass into paladin or ranger. What happens then? It sounds like there isn't a downside, just a change from where the saves go, and a warrior could use one of his feats to cover that, and then gets a bunch of skill points.

 

[Spatula]

Easy. He had an 18 STR and took martial weapon proficientcy, Greatsword. That gave him an 8-18 damage potential at first level.

Ok, maybe I exaggerated a little by saying he did close to 20 points of damage consistently.

A little... avg. damage is 13.

But most times he rolled in the teens. Lucky rolls aside, it's amazing a 1st level cleric can even do this.

It's more a consequence of removing the artificial divide between fighter stats and non-fighter stats than anything. If you somehow were able to get a 1st level cleric 18/00 strength in previous editions, and if your cleric was somehow able to use a two-handed sword, he'd be doing 7-16 damage (avg 11.5). Not all that different.

I am old timer who started way back in '78 with 1E.

Started back in '80 or so myself.

Amazing how times have changed. But is this pre-occupation that 3E has with escalations of power

Not to pick on you or anything, but this is a fine example of viewing the past through rose-colored glasses. You want to talk power escalations, look at Gygax's Unearthed Arcana, a 1E book by one of the game's principal creatores (the cavalier/paladin is a fine example of power uppance, although the book is filled with similar ones). Or most of the different Handbooks in 2E. The Priests book attempted a rare power DE-escalation, but a lot of the others, especially the later ones... wow.

I realize I didn't have to build my cleric like this. But my point is that I could. And the party needed more front-line people.

And what was his wisdom, seeing as he had an 18 in strength? I'm assuming you weren't using point-buy.

 

[aliensex]

Well, he did say it was off the top of his head.

The idea should be to alter the base class somewhat. (I assume this idea comes from the Urban Ranger variant in Masters of the Wild). Basically, the template shouldn't be adjusting things like skill points per level (adding more power), and instead should shuffle around class skills somewhat.

Like a Desert Fighter would definately not need Swim as a class skill, and instead let him swap swim for Tumble, etc. Add in maybe an armour restriction (light armour only), and some special "deserty" ability, like a heat resistance 5 (verses the subdual effects of hot environments).

Just some little checks and balances to differentiate from the standard fighter, without bestowing a large number of advantages.

 

[barsoomcore]

What's the downside to it, the changed saves? It looks like something for nothing. Am I missing the downside? More skill points, a different save progression, and some bonuses.

Okay, so it's not perfect.

The downside for a fighter is losing that Fortitude Save. Kind of a big deal for the guy who's up front getting poked with poisonous stingers and suchlike. Along with that, losing Jump as a class skill.

Obviously it could be tweaked to balance it better. I didn't offer it as a considered alternative, just as an example of the concept.

How does this work after the first level? What happens with multiclassing? Let's say I take an urban fighter, and then multiclass into paladin or ranger. What happens then?

Nothing, except that you get a level of paladin or ranger. You could, I suppose, take a level of non-"Urban" fighter, if you liked, too.

The idea is that the template is a way to quickly create what are essentially new classes.

It sounds like there isn't a downside, just a change from where the saves go, and a warrior could use one of his feats to cover that, and then gets a bunch of skill points.

If you're a ranger, I think that losing Wilderness Lore would kinda be a downside, don'tcha think? Now, sure, you COULD take a level of Urban Fighter, getting the extra 2 skill points, the Will save and the extra class skills, then take a level of Ranger and get Wilderness Lore yada yada yada... But does that make sense, really? "I've lived me whole life in the city. Oh, wait, suddenly I'm an expert in the great outdoors, too." Well, whatever.