Kobold Inconsistancy

[Kraydak]

So we agree that this type of thing is not new and is a fairly traditional part of past D&D games. And I agree with you that something that's the same as it always was is not a reason to switch systems (much like the existance of hit points, levels and classes are not a reason). But by the same logic it's also not a reason to refuse to switch systems either, unless your arguing that the entire system is the same (which it clearly isn't). In the end your decision to go (or your in case not go) to the new system will be based on how much you like the new stuff, some of which I can understand not being for everyone.

Actually, this is something that 3e has been very good at. 4e is shaping up to be a massive step backwards in that regard.

 

[Nytmare]

The pots don't appear to be anywhere near overpowered to me. What's wrong with players getting them or even having them as equipment in the PHB?

The only one that looks "new" to me is the stinkpot. Alchemist's Fire and tanglefoot bags never bothered me, and I wouldn't imagine that a miniature stinking cloud would bug me too much either.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Sure--but miniatures stand or fall on their own regardless of how customized the monsters are.

In 3.0 or 3.5, I the rules support giving my orc warrior a greataxe, a falchion, or a heavy mace but without changing much of anything but if I want my miniatures to be WYSIWYG, I still need a different miniature for each variation of orc. The degree to which I am willing to proxy or to which it is helpful to proxy miniatures doesn't really depend upon the ruleset.

The only way that I can see it increasing the miniatures market is by giving players new and variant monster stats without buying a monster manual through the RPG stats on the monster cards that come with the minis. (I know I plan on using them instead of buying a monster manual myself until and unless I am convinced that the good points of 4.0 outweight the bad points sufficiently to justify a full buy in).

Also, another batch of minatures. Because we'd never want to be one of those geeks that uses clothespins or erasers to represent kobold crossbowme...err... whatever.

 

[Incenjucar]

You know, there's nothing at all that prevents you from creating monsters in the 3E way for 4E.

In fact, it might be a perfect thing for a 3rd party publisher to produce.

 

[bganon]

The kobold glue pots are much worse though. They're actually a useful thing to have, and it doesn't matter whether they go bad quickly, because the PCs can make them. Why can they make them? Because:
* Kobolds are not intelligent or wealthy.
* Kobolds don't have any special bodily fluids like poison spit.
* Kobolds don't have any magical glue-creating powers.
* Kobolds aren't brave. If you captured a kobold and made him tell you the recipe, he would.
* Kobolds aren't so rare that they're shrouded in mystery.

So yeah, either you let anybody with basic alchemy skills make these pots at a fairly low cost, or you start coming up with the lamest, weakest, most-player-aggravating excuses we've heard for several editions.

1 - Remember, we haven't seen the full rules. It says "save ends", but maybe there are other things that will end the effect too. There might be a general rule for spending an action to make a STR check (or something) to escape immobilization. And keep in mind immobilized creatures can still make attacks. Glue pots may not actually be terribly powerful. Considering the low strength of the other pots, I suspect the game designers may have actually thought about balance.

2 - So what if anyone can make cheap glue pots? What if the process just isn't very portable? I live in a world where anyone can make ice cubes almost for free, does that mean I have unlimited access to ice when I'm backpacking through the desert 300 miles from civilization? Are players really aggravated by this concept?

3 - The first level warlock has an at-will power that slows for one round on a hit, with no save. And it's an attack against Fort defense, which is generally several lower than AC. Is the party really going to be interested in glue pots beyond 1st level?

 

[Doug McCrae]

I live in a world where anyone can make ice cubes almost for free, does that mean I have unlimited access to ice when I'm backpacking through the desert 300 miles from civilization?

Your world has inconsistent rules and hence isn't simulationist.

 

[Doug McCrae]

There is no since defending the new edition by pointing out it is repeating or expanding upon the mistakes of the past.

So for you the only problem with 4e is that they didn't change it enough?

Thing is, if they did, you know what people would say.

Not D&D. Not D&D. Not D&D!

God knows there's enough people saying that as it is.

 

[Kraydak]

...
3 - The first level warlock has an at-will power that slows for one round on a hit, with no save. And it's an attack against Fort defense, which is generally several lower than AC. Is the party really going to be interested in glue pots beyond 1st level?

So we are clear, the various pots do normal sling damage in addition to their special. You aren't giving anything up (other than cost) by using them, unlike tanglefoot bags, which cost actions. The firepot is effectively sling ammo enchanted with +4 (averaged) fire damage.

 

[Spatula]

So we agree that this type of thing is not new and is a fairly traditional part of past D&D games.

Yes, and it was recognized as a flaw in past D&D games, and was left behind. Until 4e, it appears.

 

[Incenjucar]

The alternative is...?