D&D General Kobold Press Going Down a Dark Road

[Snarf Zagyg]

Many people seem to have missed my point, so I'll attempt to be as clear and factual as possible.

This should be good. I am looking forward to this!

In the case of both the 4e and 5e core books, WotC has revised them via errata. Any currently published hard copy you buy of the 5e PHB or DMG has different content than the 2014 versions (and the Beyond versions continue to be revised regardless of when you purchased them) , and any pdf of the 4e core books you buy will be of the heavily revised versions, not of the original.*

Yes. Errata. Errata. Not wholesale rule changes. Not extensive changes to the PHB. Errata. So putting aside the fact that you can buy the 2014 version (and the multiple printings of it afterwards) if you want- because millions of copies have been printed, it's still just errata.

It is a fact that the original 4e and 5e core books are the only ones WotC has ceased to make available.

Oh no. No no no.

And yes, I have copies, but the new friends I will want to have play original 5.0 with me 5 or 10 years from now will not have access to those copies.

What ... are ... you ... talking about? How do you know what will happen in 5 or 10 years?

You can get .pdf verisons of the old rules. The reason they don't do it with the current rules is because ... they are the current rules. I mean, in addition to the fact that there is an SRD, CC, and the Basic Rules that are free.

 That is the problem. New players will be able to buy perpetually available original OD&D, 1e, 2e, 3.0, and 3.5 (as they should), but they will not be able to buy original 4e or 5e, which hampers the ability of players who prefer those two editions to play them, because they can't get new books for their new players.

Again, what?

I cannot see anything in these statements that is not simply factual (other than my prediction based on treatment of 4e that WotC will not in the future decide to offer 2014 5e pdfs).

Now obviously, if one personally isn't interested in those versions, this won't matter to them, just like it probably didn't matter when we couldn't buy pdfs of any of those other versions. But I would like it if we could all pull together in support of others' ability to continue to purchase the copies of their preferred editions that will allow them to introduce new players to them.

*Let me here clarify that it is not the nature of the changes (some of which were already how I ran things, or clarifications that seemed superfluous but maybe are helpful for new players, or (in the case of 4e) mechanical changes that I'd be onboard with), but the fact of them that I'm criticizing.

So let me point out the obvious-

Past versions of the past books have also had multiple printings. You don't get every single version of every single printing of every rulebook available - try to get an official copy of the first run of Deities & Demigods, for instance.

But if your new position is that .... wait for it .... WoTC is no longer offering, for sale, all print runs of the 5e PHB with and without the errata, then .... wait ...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Past versions of the past books have also had multiple printings. You don't get every single version of every single printing of every rulebook available - try to get an official copy of the first run of Deities & Demigods, for instance.

we used 1 copy of the PHB for my group for a few months, then 1 person bought a used copy... it was teh same. When we met 2 new players a few months later we talked about broad swords and they asked what book those were in... we said the players, they opened theres and lo and behold, no broad sword.

then someone got the black boardered 2e reprint and it was set up diffrent we saw lots of changes....

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

we used 1 copy of the PHB for my group for a few months, then 1 person bought a used copy... it was teh same. When we met 2 new players a few months later we talked about broad swords and they asked what book those were in... we said the players, they opened theres and lo and behold, no broad sword.

That's the thing with the really old editions. Gendered swords.

 

[Retreater]

The only edition changes we've seen for the past two decades have been earth-shattering magnitudes of incompatibility: 2e - 3e - 4e - 5e. While there have been subtle revisions (2e - skillz and cheez; 3e - 3.5e; 4e - Essentials), we haven't really seen a new edition that doesn't toss out the entire history of the game since 1989.
People are understandably worried - most because the big change is all they've known. I'm worried because I'm worn out with 5e and would like a more substantial fix. I don't think WotC (or Kobold Press, for that matter) are going to go far enough to make the system I'd like to play.

 

[Micah Sweet]

This should be good. I am looking forward to this!




Yes. Errata. Errata. Not wholesale rule changes. Not extensive changes to the PHB. Errata. So putting aside the fact that you can buy the 2014 version (and the multiple printings of it afterwards) if you want- because millions of copies have been printed, it's still just errata.



Oh no. No no no.



What ... are ... you ... talking about? How do you know what will happen in 5 or 10 years?

You can get .pdf verisons of the old rules. The reason they don't do it with the current rules is because ... they are the current rules. I mean, in addition to the fact that there is an SRD, CC, and the Basic Rules that are free.




Again, what?



So let me point out the obvious-

Past versions of the past books have also had multiple printings. You don't get every single version of every single printing of every rulebook available - try to get an official copy of the first run of Deities & Demigods, for instance.

But if your new position is that .... wait for it .... WoTC is no longer offering, for sale, all print runs of the 5e PHB with and without the errata, then .... wait ...

I don't know what the gif means, but it looks disparaging.

 

[dave2008]

It is a fact that the original 4e and 5e core books are the only ones WotC has ceased to make available.

but they will not be able to buy original 4e or 5e, which hampers the ability of players who prefer those two editions to play them, because they can't get new books for their new players.

I do not know what they will do for the 2014 core books, but you can get the 4e books from DMs Guild via PDF and Print on Demand.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I don't know what the gif means, but it looks disparaging.

You're right. I should be easier on myself. Thank you!

It's the look I get when I realize I've been typing and typing and typing, but the other person is still like, "YO! FOUR WORKOUTS A WEEK! FOUR!!!!"

What has my life become?

 

[Micah Sweet]

I do not know what they will do for the 2014 core books, but you can get the 4e books from DMs Guild via PDF and Print on Demand.

I believe they were referring to the core books unmarred by "The Complete Errata Handbook" WotC put out over the 4e years.

 

[dave2008]

While there have been subtle revisions (2e - skillz and cheez; 3e - 3.5e; 4e - Essentials), we haven't really seen a new edition that doesn't toss out the entire history of the game since 1989.

'14 5e to '24 5e is a subtle revision as you put it. However, I can understand people being worried until we get the final product. Uncertainty worries a lot of people.

 

[Micah Sweet]

You're right. I should be easier on myself. Thank you!

It's the look I get when I realize I've been typing and typing and typing, but the other person is still like, "YO! FOUR WORKOUTS A WEEK! FOUR!!!!"

What has my life become?

I still don't get it. Nevermind.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I still don't get it. Nevermind.

 

[dave2008]

I believe they were referring to the core books unmarred by "The Complete Errata Handbook" WotC put out over the 4e years.

Possibly, but it didn't seem that way to me. Nor do I understand why you would want a book with errata (in most cases).

 

[Bolares]

I still don't get it. Nevermind.

Just nod and call Snarf a bard... it usually works for me.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Just nod and call Snarf a bard... it usually works for me.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Possibly, but it didn't seem that way to me. Nor do I understand why you would want a book with errata (in most cases).

Never said I did. Dont want such a book. I'm saying there was enough errata generated for 4e to fill a literal book.

 

[Alzrius]

That's the thing with the really old editions. Gendered swords.

Broad swords left the hobby because they kept being harassed by those insufferable bastard swords.

 

[Remathilis]

I believe they were referring to the core books unmarred by "The Complete Errata Handbook" WotC put out over the 4e years.

WotC is under no obligation to sell the original versions of the 4e books any more than Disney is obligated to release the Theatrical versions of the OT.

 

[Micah Sweet]

WotC is under no obligation to sell the original versions of the 4e books any more than Disney is obligated to release the Theatrical versions of the OT.

But wouldn't it be nice if they did?

 

[dave2008]

Never said I did. Dont want such a book.

I didn't mean you personally, I meant anyone.

I'm saying there was enough errata generated for 4e to fill a literal book.

I know there was a lot, but the amount for each individual book didn't amount to all that much really. There were just a lot of books!

 

[dave2008]

But wouldn't it be nice if they did?

Would they even keep the pre-errata copies? I would imagine the old data files are just deleted, but I guess they could be archived. I still don't know that it would be "nice" if they offered them for sale. Seems more like a hassle if I want to by a 4e book and have to figure our which errata version I want to get.