D&D General Kobold Press Going Down a Dark Road

Reef

Hero
Funny. You can give people more than one thing, and you don't have cater exclusively to the most popular options.
I'm sorry, but it's just starting to sound like you are unhappy that they're not catering to your wants specifically.

You can deliver more than one thing, but there's only so much time any company (even the one the size of WoTC) can devote. So, given the choices, of course they are going to spend the work hours on the options which will make the largest portion of their base happy. If their numbers showed that Psionics (or whatever else you are looking for) were popular with enough of their customers, they would be doing that. To do otherwise would be crazy. They aren't doing this just to spite the Psionics fans.

And yeah, publicly traded companies come with extra complications. But even a small one or two person rpg house are going to maximize their work on what will give them the biggest boost.
 

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Oofta

Legend
Funny. You can give people more than one thing, and you don't have cater exclusively to the most popular options.
Try to do too much and you just end up cannibalizing your own sales at the cost of extra overhead and watering down your brand. Fortunately there are plenty of 3PP that offer niches that WOTC doesn't pursue.

For 5E WOTC chose a business model of producing relatively small amount of product while leaving other companies to go after the relatively small potatoes. Trying to be everything didn't work out very well for TSR, WOTC's current strategy is likely one of the reasons 5E is the best selling version ever.
 


Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
I'm sorry, but it's just starting to sound like you are unhappy that they're not catering to your wants specifically.

You can deliver more than one thing, but there's only so much time any company (even the one the size of WoTC) can devote. So, given the choices, of course they are going to spend the work hours on the options which will make the largest portion of their base happy. If their numbers showed that Psionics (or whatever else you are looking for) were popular with enough of their customers, they would be doing that. To do otherwise would be crazy. They aren't doing this just to spite the Psionics fans.

And yeah, publicly traded companies come with extra complications. But even a small one or two person rpg house are going to maximize their work on what will give them the biggest boost.
I use 3pp for psionics, and a ton of other stuff. This doesn't affect me personally at all (except for the settings, which I'm still very sore about). I just think WotC is making bad choices for bad reasons. I like talking about gaming, but almost everybody devotes their attention to WotC so if I want to get into a conversation it's probably going to be about WotC.

Its a shame. I'd love to talk about companies and games I like, but WotC sucks so much air out of the room that most of the activity is about them and their (IMO) substandard game. A lot of people won't even consider looking at, playing, or talking about anything else.
 

mamba

Hero
Its a shame. I'd love to talk about companies and games I like, but WotC sucks so much air out of the room that most of the activity is about them and their (IMO) substandard game. A lot of people won't even consider looking at, playing, or talking about anything else.
maybe try it in a forum other than the D&D one. When I look at your recent posts, the last 100 were all on D&D, not one in Level Up...
 
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Sorry, but how do you know that? Have they said they'd love to put out psionics rules, but don't because no one wants them? And even if that were true, why on Earth would they put out rules that no one wants? Like they are trying to make us eat our vegetables?*

*Bad metaphor...I love my vegetables :)
While it is not something we know for absolute certain, they have said that they want to do psionics, and indeed have tried like three times now. Each time, they couldn't find something that earned enough positive response for them to think it was worth further development. You don't attempt to do something three separate times if it isn't something people are interested in getting. You don't abandon three distinct efforts to do something unless those efforts are repeatedly not working.

If their numbers showed that Psionics (or whatever else you are looking for) were popular with enough of their customers, they would be doing that. To do otherwise would be crazy. They aren't doing this just to spite the Psionics fans.
Again: they've tried three times. Is that not evidence that they think it's worth doing? Most other things never get more than one attempt. (Consider PrCs.) Yet nothing has come of it, all three times.
 



mamba

Hero
Again: they've tried three times. Is that not evidence that they think it's worth doing? Most other things never get more than one attempt.
Given the kind of flak they get here for the stuff that did meet the threshold, I am not sure including something that does not is a good idea...
 


MNblockhead

A Title Much Cooler Than Anything on the Old Site
This thread about Kobold Press’s hyperbole has (predictably?) veered into a familiar long dark road. 🙃
Ah, you beat me too it.

There is a core group of characters on EN World who can't help themselves from having the same argument over and over again, on any thread.

I wasn't involved in the hobby during the infamous 4e era "edition wars" but I'm starting to see why people get so concerned about it. I really just wrecks a forum. I'm close to either mashing the ignore button on 5-10 people who I have enjoyed reading on other topics, or just step away from ENWorld for while.
 

Given the kind of flak they get here for the stuff that did meet the threshold, I am not sure including something that does not is a good idea...
Sometimes, there is something to be said for going with the flow. Sometimes, it may be more valuable to stick with your guns, even if it doesn't please everyone. 5e has done an awful lot of the former and very little of the latter.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
I understand why you also post here, but almost exclusively posting here and simultaneously complaining that everyone talks about D&D felt a bit odd, or is that a chicken and egg kind of problem?
Yeah, you answered your own question. Outside of some specific mechanics, and company talk, you have the same conversations in Level Up as you do in any other version of 5e. WotC is big and first, so almost all the 5e talk happens here.
 

Imaro

Legend
Sometimes, there is something to be said for going with the flow. Sometimes, it may be more valuable to stick with your guns, even if it doesn't please everyone. 5e has done an awful lot of the former and very little of the latter.
Yes, and previous editions did alot of the latter...

Edit: Also im sure they know they can't please everyone but if something doesn't resonate with the majority of your market... why would you spend the money and dedicate the resources developing it when you can focus those on products that do resonate with the majority... this is business 101.
 
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Yes, and previous editions did alot of the latter...

Edit: Also im sure they know they can't please everyone but if something doesn't resonate with the majority of your market... why would you spend the money and dedicate the resources developing it when you can focus those on products that do resonate with the majority... this is business 101.
Except that they've then clearly thrown good money after bad, if they've tried three separate times and every single try fails.

At this point, it would have netted them some profit to publish something, even if it wasn't universally acclaimed. Remember, the standard we've been told WotC has used in the past is something like 75% approval. If something didn't get 75% approval, it was canned back in D&D Next. They may have relaxed things a bit since then, but they're still almost surely setting really really really high standards. Such standards are good if you can meet them, since that nearly guarantees profits. They are bad when, as the saying goes, the perfect is the enemy of the good.

Further...not every product needs to be for every customer. That's the lesson of stuff like extra chunky spaghetti sauce. You can horizontally segment your market and increase your profits--sometimes by an order of magnitude. The issue, again, is NOT that psionics aren't desired. It's that everyone who wants psionics (and it's clearly a significant chunk if they were willing to try three separate times to make it happen) wants THEIR psionics, and (in general) REALLY DISLIKES anything that isn't THEIR psionics.
  • Some want it highly scientific-sounding. Others want woo-woo mysticism. Still others want something more "paranormal."
  • Some want it to function very similar to spellcasting. Others want it to be nothing at all like spellcasting.
  • Some want it to be highly diverse and flexible. Others want it to be very focused and specific.
  • Some want to integrate psionics into other things, especially if they're fans of hyper-reductionism. Others want psionics to remain totally separate from other classes. Some take a middle ground and accept "dabbler" subclasses (the psi equivalent of EK.)
And the problem is, even if two people agree on their position for each of the four distinctions above, they can still take umbrage with how each other would implement the specific details.

IOW, there's like four or five distinct, large camps, that all want psionics and may constitute a majority of players (certainly, it constitutes enough of a bloc that WotC has tried to court them three times, something only matched by their efforts to rework the Ranger), but none of them fully agree on what form it should take. Any specific implementation may only please 60% of psionics fans (if you're lucky), who may be only 70% of all customers. So even though a majority of people might want psionics, and a majority of the people who want psionics may want any given implementation, a distinct minority (.6*.7 = 0.42) of the overall population may actually like that specific implementation.

And so we go, around and around, unable to move forward because it's not possible to please 70% of the customer base with any given implementation of psionics, even though "give us psionics" gets 70% approval. Lowering the threshold for "this is good enough to make a profit" would make sense under this hypothesis, because then all the work they've already put into making some kind of psionics would at least finally turn a profit, even if that profit is smaller than the theoretical profit they could get from a (potentially impossible) ideal psionics solution that pleased all of the camps.

If they instead came out with psionics rules that at least attempted to horizontally segment the market (say, 2 or 3 psionic classes instead of just one, with one going for a more scientific and focused approach, and another going for a more diverse woo-woo mysticism approach), and included it in a supplemental book like Dark Sun where it can be easily ignored by people who don't like psionics, they might find quite a bit of success. Not as much success as if they could find the silver bullet for all these troubles, but again, the perfect is the enemy of the good.
 
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Imaro

Legend
Except that they've then clearly thrown good money after bad, if they've tried three separate times and every single try fails.

At this point, it would have netted them some profit to publish something, even if it wasn't universally acclaimed. Remember, the standard we've been told WotC has used in the past is something like 75% approval. If something didn't get 75% approval, it was canned back in D&D Next. They may have relaxed things a bit since then, but they're still almost surely setting really really really high standards. Such standards are good if you can meet them, since that nearly guarantees profits. They are bad when, as the saying goes, the perfect is the enemy of the good.
Wouldn't this depend on what the approval rating actually was... if you're only getting 20% approval its still probably not worth it to devote further money and resources to actually getting the rules officially published, not to mention the bad publicity and hate that come with releasing something that in the eyes of the vast majority of your playerbase is subpar.

Further...not every product needs to be for every customer. That's the lesson of stuff like extra chunky spaghetti sauce. You can horizontally segment your market and increase your profits--sometimes by an order of magnitude. The issue, again, is NOT that psionics aren't desired. It's that everyone who wants psionics (and it's clearly a significant chunk if they were willing to try three separate times to make it happen) wants THEIR psionics, and (in general) REALLY DISLIKES anything that isn't THEIR psionics.
  • Some want it highly scientific-sounding. Others want woo-woo mysticism. Still others want something more "paranormal."
  • Some want it to function very similar to spellcasting. Others want it to be nothing at all like spellcasting.
  • Some want it to be highly diverse and flexible. Others want it to be very focused and specific.
  • Some want to integrate psionics into other things, especially if they're fans of hyper-reductionism. Others want psionics to remain totally separate from other classes. Some take a middle ground and accept "dabbler" subclasses (the psi equivalent of EK.)
And the problem is, even if two people agree on their position for each of the four distinctions above, they can still take umbrage with how each other would implement the specific details.

IOW, there's like four or five distinct, large camps, that all want psionics and may constitute a majority of players (certainly, it constitutes enough of a bloc that WotC has tried to court them three times, something only matched by their efforts to rework the Ranger), but none of them fully agree on what form it should take. Any specific implementation may only please 60% of psionics fans (if you're lucky), who may be only 70% of all customers. So even though a majority of people might want psionics, and a majority of the people who want psionics may want any given implementation, a distinct minority (.6*.7 = 0.42) of the overall population may actually like that specific implementation.
Again you're making an assumption that can't be proven... even give we take that a large number of people want psionics...that doesn't mean in turn the subgroups themselves are large... which is like I said above how you end up with an extremely low approval rating. If 50% of WotC market want psionics but only 5-10% of that approve of any one method of implementing them... we are now dealing with a relatively small base that is interested in purchasing whichever route they go and its not going to be worth the costs to produce or the backlash from those who didn't get it...

And so we go, around and around, unable to move forward because it's not possible to please 70% of the customer base with any given implementation of psionics, even though "give us psionics" gets 70% approval. Lowering the threshold for "this is good enough to make a profit" would make sense under this hypothesis, because then all the work they've already put into making some kind of psionics would at least finally turn a profit, even if that profit is smaller than the theoretical profit they could get from a (potentially impossible) ideal psionics solution that pleased all of the camps.

If they instead came out with psionics rules that at least attempted to horizontally segment the market (say, 2 or 3 psionic classes instead of just one, with one going for a more scientific and focused approach, and another going for a more diverse woo-woo mysticism approach), and included it in a supplemental book like Dark Sun where it can be easily ignored by people who don't like psionics, they might find quite a bit of success. Not as much success as if they could find the silver bullet for all these troubles, but again, the perfect is the enemy of the good.
I find your estimates of how many people want psionics suspect as you would think with 70% wanting psionics and WotC not providing them there would be a plethora of 3pp who would fill the necessary gaps for all iterations WotC has tried and then some... yet thats not what we are seeing when it comes to psionics. I don't think the approval rating for psionics is as high as you think, 9nstead I think WotC views it as a legacy system that should come across with various editions but also something that isn't that big of a deal to the average D&D player.
 

Wow. A huge thread with an astonishingly misleading title all because the OP wildly read into a very straightforward and accurate claim by KP. Truly this is the internet.

I thought KP had maybe actually done something wrong (harassment scandal, racism, etc. - all common today), but nope, they stated the obvious, and apparently that's too much for some people.
 

Wow. A huge thread with an astonishingly misleading title all because the OP wildly read into a very straightforward and accurate claim by KP. Truly this is the internet.

I thought KP had maybe actually done something wrong (harassment scandal, racism, etc. - all common today), but nope, they stated the obvious, and apparently that's too much for some people.
Thanks Ruin Explorer!
In fact, I kind of wish folks would start a new thread to talk about all of these issues and maybe just lock this thread since it's gotten so wildly off topic.
 


Not necessarily. I agree that 1D&D will eventually be a new edition, but it will be the same game as 5e. By that I mean it is broadly compatible with O5e.

Where as 4e is a different game and not broadly compatible with 5e. There are similarities, they are in the same family, they are both D&D, but the are not the same game of D&D.
calling pervious editions a different game is WAY to dangerously close to calling them not D&D for me to agree.
 

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