D&D General Kobold Press Going Down a Dark Road

[GMforPowergamers]

I get that, but I don't see a good reason to continue a mistake. 3e was a new game, not just a new edition.

and I disagree with this... I understaand that wotc D&D compared to TSR D&D has the most changes though

4e as a new game, not just a new edition.

no way is 4e new game... the stats stay the same you still have feats and skills wotc editions are all similar

5e is a new game, not just a new edition. 1D&D is a new edition, but it is not a new game (i.e. 6e).

wait did you just say it's a new edition?!?! I thought I was argueing that and you were argueing it wasn't?
I mean then we agree 1D&D with what we have seen so far is a new edition from 5e.

I could go on, but this is really a pointless discussion so I don't personally see the need to. I imagine we both know what we are talking about.

I'm actually more confused right now then I have been since you just called it a new edition, but okay we can leave it here

 

[Reef]

there is a bit of truth to this... and customers don't really know what they want. That if a chief took a poll they would end up making burgers, but everyone will pay top dollar for there file minion

Well, in a way, that’s what they’re doing with the play test: they are serving up different cuts of meat, and saying “do you like this? No? How about this instead?”. Start with hamburger, try prime rib. Too rich? How about…um….I don’t know enough about cooking to continue this metaphor .

But they are making new rules they think are better. Only instead of just forcing them on us, they are giving us a chance to try them. Which to my mind is a much better idea than just releasing a new book and realizing it just alienated a large portion of their audience.

 

[Bolares]

My thought was, WotC puts out psionic rules years ago, people grumble but eventually get used to them, allowing WotC to release Dark Sun prior to social media gaining the ability to scare companies away from releasing anything controversial. Way too late now, of course.

By that time they were scared to publish any setting, and it wasn't for moral reasons, it's because they believed they wouldn't make any money.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

So, they should have put out rules that made people grumble?

maybe.

Here is the thing, sometimes people grumble just to grumble. Sometimes people grumble because new is scary and they want the old way. Sometimes people grumble because they really don't like it...

Can I tell those (and most likely 100 varriants) apart, no not easily maybe not at all. Nor do I expect WotC can.

IF they put out the game they think is best even if we grumble, and some % really hate it but the other % of grumblers are the others... then yeah over time it will get more and more approved of.

 

[Reef]

maybe.

Here is the thing, sometimes people grumble just to grumble. Sometimes people grumble because new is scary and they want the old way. Sometimes people grumble because they really don't like it...

Can I tell those (and most likely 100 varriants) apart, no not easily maybe not at all. Nor do I expect WotC can.

IF they put out the game they think is best even if we grumble, and some % really hate it but the other % of grumblers are the others... then yeah over time it will get more and more approved of.

So the fact that Micah is grumbling now means they are on the right track?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Well, in a way, that’s what they’re doing with the play test: they are serving up different cuts of meat, and saying “do you like this? No? How about this instead?”. Start with hamburger, try prime rib. Too rich? How about…um….I don’t know enough about cooking to continue this metaphor .

again yes and no... they are doing so but only pushing forward if something hits a high aproval ratting.

however I would argue that isn't the only thing they are doing... they are preping us. They are feeding us steak and vegies for a year so that we get our grumbles out and a year from now the grumbles that were just fear of change are long gone and the only grummbles left are really dislike it.

we are't the eater... we are the lobster going into the cold pot and the temp slowly being turned up "Hey I love hot tubs"

But they are making new rules they think are better. Only instead of just forcing them on us, they are giving us a chance to try them. Which to my mind is a much better idea than just releasing a new book and realizing it just alienated a large portion of their audience.

 

[mamba]

There are definitely times I wish they would just decide on their own. For example, there would be rules for psionics if they did this.

ugh, a good case for asking opinions as far as I am concerned. Psionics never added anything of value for me and I ignored them as best I could

 

[GMforPowergamers]

So the fact that Micah is grumbling now means they are on the right track?

yeah, maybe Micha is going to hate it and not buy it no matter what... but I promise there are die hard "I don't like it" today that come 3 -5 months after relase buy the book (if not day 1 or preorder)

 

[BrokenTwin]

In regards to psionic rules... I think it would be a safe bet (entirely hypothetical, of course), that just because they didn't get a majority of positive feedback, doesn't mean that the majority of players wouldn't be okay with whatever psionic rules they released. People who are the type to give feedback are also more likely to be negative in said feedback (and have strong feelings about it), so what the majority of responders say is not always what the majority of the audience feels. Most players would probably just go "oh hey, new options, cool!"

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

But they are making new rules they think are better. Only instead of just forcing them on us, they are giving us a chance to try them. Which to my mind is a much better idea than just releasing a new book and realizing it just alienated a large portion of their audience.

I mean ... in fairness, they did try this before!

What, too soon?

Seriously though- this is exactly correct. It is unclear to me what the real complaint that most people are having is. Just in this thread, we see one set of people (such as Micah) grumbling that the game is too popular ... like it's a bad thing. That WoTC shouldn't be designing for "the masses," but for what's good, or, at least, for what Michah wants.

Then you have GMPG. Their contention is that none of this matters- it's just luck, man! This could've been OD&D with the LBBs, and people would be eating it up because it was on Stranger Things. I guess if you're really against the whole idea of "System Matters," that's an attractive proposition, but....

In truth, it's not that complicated. They have a popular brand, and they are devoted to giving the consumers what they want. While it is certainly true that there are times when people have great breakthroughs and give consumers something they didn't realize that they wanted yet (the iPhone would be an example of this), it's also true that if you're making a broadly-popular product and a market leader, it's generally a good idea to make something that ... wait for it ... PEOPLE LIKE.

Which means that you're not going to be "cutting edge." You might not appeal to the most hard core people. But you will appeal the broadest popular base. That's what D&D, and 5e / OneD&D is trying to do.

ETA- And I admit that I would love it if, for example, WoTC released an updated Dark Sun with REAL PSIONICS. But I'm also not holding my breath. I don't see them doing that anytime soon, which is why I'm glad that there is a vibrant 3PP market.