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D&D General Kobold Press Going Down a Dark Road

Bolares

Hero
I would generally choose to live with the mistake (or make my own correction) until a proper new edition can be made. But maybe that's just me. I don't need Word of God for printing errors.
okay, I think we just look at this differently then (wich is completely fine). I usually don't buy things in the first printing because I expect there to have some balancing, grammar or printing error, and wait for the version with errata.
 

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dave2008

Legend
I still think it would be better for the health of the game if they made an honest attempt at that game, however, instead of pushing whatever is the easiest way to make the most money. The fact that they are not trying to make that game tells me they care more about being a money machine than a game company.
I don't think it tells you that though. I think your perspective and biases allow you to interpret information to draw that conclusion. However, I don't think the available information demands or even necessarily leads to that conclusion.
 

Reef

Hero
Your last paragraph doesn't really refute the "sheep" argument you claim I am making, to be fair.

I told you that a new game that appeals to the modern gamer with a new, modern sensibility-driven setting would likely still not be to my taste. I know people like different things, and that's great. I still think it would be better for the health of the game if they made an honest attempt at that game, however, instead of pushing whatever is the easiest way to make the most money. The fact that they are not trying to make that game tells me they care more about being a money machine than a game company.
We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one then. I believe that refining the system that is already working for them (and arguably a large number of their base) is the best course for the health of the game. Instead of taking a risk and tossing out what is currently working and starting fresh.

I'm coming from a "It's pretty good, let's see them make it better" position, while you seem to be at a more "It currently isn't any good, why don't they try again" mindset.

Personally, I'm glad they're asking our opinions and not just telling us what they think is best. But that's just me.
 


we all seem to have a different standard for "compatibility."
and don't you think it;s funny that since we all have our diffrent standards people can tell each other how wrong they are?
I personally find yours to be unreasonable
okay, I don't that is why I am stating them
I accept your definition for you, I would hope you accept my definition for me.
only as longg as you ACTUALLY except it and don't keep argueing with me that I am wrong
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
They provided new subclasses (indeed, this is where the term "subclass" got started in D&D.) These subclasses could be played right alongside the original ones. Those with altered roles were especially ripe for such a thing. Certainly, you could mix and match to your heart's content: a Slayer Fighter next to an original Paladin in the front, with an Arcanist (aka original) Wizard next to an Elementalist Sorcerer in the back. Or what-have-you.


No. Because from everything I've seen, it is intended that the "One D&D" way is intended to truly replace the old. You are not supposed to use unmodified backgrounds, for example, because backgrounds now provide key parts of your starting resources (a feat, for instance.) Sure, you can convert them, but you still need to convert them. Likewise races, or "species," will require conversion. Not a ton of it, but some. It is significantly more like 3.5 vs 3.0: the two games have mostly the same mathematical structure, so you can use adventures from "5.0" in "5.5" as you like, and most options can be converted pretty easily or swapped out cleanly (e.g. Ranger will now be getting Expertise, backgrounds will require some adaptation), but the player-facing resources are not meant to be mixed together exactly as they are. With 4e, that was always 100% the intent and results of Essentials: alternate takes that were fully inter-compatible with existing player content.


That someone makes the argument does not say much. People make a lot of arguments... especially when it comes to edition warring. That said, it's not an argument I've ever seen made, and would certainly muck up the clean alternation between "N.0 = brand new game, N.5 = just a minor update."

Beyond that: I don't see the changes to things like Skill Challenges, or even Stealth, to be indicative of an edition change, not even a half edition. The thing that pissed people off about 3.5, the thing that made it a "revised edition," was that it was intended to replace, not complement. Content that wasn't given the rubber stamp was implicitly suspect (and that was honestly a good thing, 3.0 actually IS worse for balance than 3.5, if you can believe it.) Players were expected to adopt the new, tweaked rules and not mix the two together, though effort was made to make it so prior adventures could still be run with minimal changes.

That's always been my standard for a "N.5e" change. Does it ask players to use replacements for the mechanics they've been using, e.g. races and classes and spells, rather than offering alternatives to those things? If you are replacing the core player experience, even if that replacement is just a bit of conversion, it's an N.5e. If players and DMs can keep using exactly what they've been using and add in stuff from the new material or use new material and add in old stuff at their leisure with little to no conversion, then it's still the same game, it just got a big supplement.

Hence, even though it's a ton of stuff, Incarnum+Bo9S+all the extra base classes like Hexblade and Binder do not constitute a "half-edition" or "revised edition." Because they are just opt-in new options for the same game. Skills & Powers, from everything I've heard, is also not a revised edition, it's just a ton more options. The original Unearthed Arcana is not a revised edition. Etc.

By this metric, I could in fact actually see an argument that 2e was effectively a "revised edition" as I use the term: it preserved much of the continuity, but did in fact make changes large and small that meant you probably shouldn't mix and match player-facing materials together. It wasn't a major departure like the differences between 1e, 3e, 4e, or 5e, but it was still a shift and players really were expected to learn a modified set of rules, even if much of it would be very familiar.

For 4e, RC, MM3, and MV were useful expansions of existing material. Errata had been official rules updates from day 1, so a book officially collecting errata up to that point was simply a convenience. No class fundamentally gained or lost any mechanics. The recommended math for skill challenges changed, but the actual process of doing one remained pretty much identical; it had less effect on player experience than the 1e->2e shift from attack matrices to THAC0. Likewise, there is nothing really wrong with using unmodified MM1/2 monsters in any 4e game. They're just likely to be not quite as exciting, and to take longer to defeat; the "updated" math is simply there to make the monsters offer faster, riskier combat. I have personally had DMs who mixed the two together freely without any adaptation at all.

Did 4e change across its run? Yes and no. Stealth changed, skill challenges changed a bit, all classes got errata over time (mostly just preventing obviously problematic stuff, like infinite damage if you could consistently hit an enemy with a certain Ranger power.) That is change. But it's not change any different from getting supplements and patching up little problems, something every edition and half-edition has done. So those changes, while certainly change, aren't on the same level. There were a lot of VERY upset people in the wake of 3.5e's launch, accusing WotC of fleecing their customers by forcing everyone to buy new books after only a couple of years. That criticism never occurred with 4e and Essentials, despite all the misinformation people spread (and continue to spread) about 4e, because Essentials didn't do that.

Hence why I care about this distinction. "Half-edition," "revised," whatever we want to call it, there is a meaningful gap that occurs here. And we can see this logic in a perfect test case: Pathfinder. It is not, despite what Paizo claimed, 1:1 compatible with 3.5e. Many classes work differently. Many classes got new features or significant reworks. And what did people call it? "3.75e," the analogy being "if 3.5e was only half an edition, this is the same process happening a second time, so we add half of a half, bringing it to 3.75." If you want to play PF1e, you do need to do some conversion. It isn't a ton of conversion, because the underlying math remains the same (which is why PF2e exists), but the classes and their features are different and need to be relearned.

It is useful to draw a distinction between on the one hand the kinds of slow, iterative, piecemeal change that literally all editions (and pretty much all descendants) of D&D go through; and on the other hand, the sharp, conversion-inducing, feature-rewriting, fundamental-rule-tweaking changes that "revised" editions specifically bring to the table. Why enforce weird new vocabulary or jargon when we have a perfectly useful term already applied in exactly this way, the "half-edition" concept? Why dilute a useful term by making it mean "any time anything's added"?

Now, if someone wants to argue that Essentials represents something similar to a half-edition, well sure, make that argument. Recognize where the similarities break down. Potentially, propose your own terms, e.g. "Essentials, and other things like it such as Unearthed Arcana, Skills and Powers, or Bo9S, are a smaller step than a revision, but a bigger step than most supplements, united by their large scope and often tinkering with how players get into the game. I say we call these 'N.1e': it recognizes that a meaningful change has occurred, but one that remains pretty much the same game with more stuff." That's a perfectly cromulent position and proposes a potentially useful new bit of terminology. We could say, for instance, that Pathfinder's "Ultimate" effort was PF1.1e, not an edition revision, but providing alternate takes on existing classes. Likewise, one might argue that the 13 True Ways supplement for 13th Age is "13A 1.1," since it added a ton of major new options without contradicting anything that came before.

And this can be applied to 5e as well. Many folks talk about "2014 5e," which is pretty clearly synonymous with "5.0e" in the above taxonomy. Things have changed and grown over the past almost-nine years, and many folks recognized a shift in structure and approach around the time of Tasha's. (Really it started earlier but Tasha's was when it became obvious to most folks.) We can think of Tasha's as being 5.1e: it's still the same game, but we're getting new, alternate options. Like the different types of dragonborn, which do not replace the original, just providing alternate options. (Though you absolutely should use gem/metallic/chromatic, because PHB dragonborn mechanically suck.) Or the shift from short-rest abilities to Prof-per-long-rest abilities. It's not enough to make any kind of real break, you can totally still mix and match stuff from "5.0e" and "5.1e," but it's definitely some kind of change. "One D&D" is very clearly shaping up to be very, very similar to 3.5e: classes will be reworked, spells will be changed, some common subsystems will require at least a little conversion (e.g. backgrounds.) Consider, for example, the proposed changes to Magical Secrets; under the new rules, how could one even begin to make sense of picking lists from a single class when there is no such thing in "One D&D"? Instead, you'd have to either just use the new Bard, or do some conversion work, or just...not actually use the "One D&D" classes at all, which defeats the whole purpose of trying to use the new material. It doesn't all play nice together, but it can be adjusted to do so with a little effort. Hence, "One D&D" in its current playtest form looks very much like a "5.5e": a revision of 5e, that keeps the same overall rules structure while making pervasive updates that players must learn to use and must perform a few conversions to adapt to.
Exactly. Describing what's happening as anything else is official or unofficial marketing, nothing more.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one then. I believe that refining the system that is already working for them (and arguably a large number of their base) is the best course for the health of the game. Instead of taking a risk and tossing out what is currently working and starting fresh.

I'm coming from a "It's pretty good, let's see them make it better" position, while you seem to be at a more "It currently isn't any good, why don't they try again" mindset.

Personally, I'm glad they're asking our opinions and not just telling us what they think is best. But that's just me.
There are definitely times I wish they would just decide on their own. For example, there would be rules for psionics if they did this.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
okay, I think we just look at this differently then (wich is completely fine). I usually don't buy things in the first printing because I expect there to have some balancing, grammar or printing error, and wait for the version with errata.
Yeah, I take a stance similar to what I do with video games. I expect the initial launch to be...shall we say, fraught. I usually don't buy things immediately on release unless they are at a meaningful discount or I'm already deeply invested. E.g., I play FFXIV, I'm gonna get each expansion as it comes out, knowing it will have some bumpy spots at first, because I already know I'm going to get a quality experience overall. With something like Cyberpunk? I stayed far away until it got updated.

This is part of the advantage of a real public play*test* as opposed to the fake publicity stunts that masquerade as public playtests. You get a feel for what the product will be, and the creators get the ability to make use of all those player eyes and ears to catch issues they would have overlooked. That's the ideal for Early Access as well, though often that just becomes "be a beta tester and pay money for the privilege" (hence why I usually don't do early access either!)
 

Reef

Hero
There are definitely times I wish they would just decide on their own. For example, there would be rules for psionics if they did this.
Sorry, but how do you know that? Have they said they'd love to put out psionics rules, but don't because no one wants them? And even if that were true, why on Earth would they put out rules that no one wants? Like they are trying to make us eat our vegetables?*

*Bad metaphor...I love my vegetables :)
 

dave2008

Legend
right... and now we have a new 1D&D... and I (and others) feel it is at least as big a jump as 1e/2e or 3e/3.5 and we have always called both of those editions... changing the way we use the word edition is just making it more complex, but I have for a while tried to say "Version"
I get that, but I don't see a good reason to continue a mistake. 3e was a new game, not just a new edition. 4e as a new game, not just a new edition. 5e is a new game, not just a new edition. 1D&D is a new edition, but it is not a new game (i.e. 6e).

I could go on, but this is really a pointless discussion so I don't personally see the need to. I imagine we both know what we are talking about.
 

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