D&D General Kobold Press Going Down a Dark Road

Clint_L

Hero
My concern is at what point will the 2014 books and options for making characters in DDB go away? I've switched to handling and tracking my PC through DDB and I dread when that will no longer be feasible for me.
Hasbro just paid $146 million to tie DDB to D&D forever, reiterating its importance to their planning as recently as today, when they demonstrated it integrating with their new VTT.

So I think you are safe.

Edit - oh you mean the old books specifically? I can still access mine and they have made a point of keeping legacy content available, so again you are good.
 

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EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Grognards, by their very nature, have stuck with the game for decades, and quite likely have bought a significant portion of the offerings being put out during that time and/or brought many other people into the hobby who themselves became consumers, at least for a time. Grognards are, in other words, the vital few.

Unfortunately, there's a pretty big problem with excessive focus on grognards, one that many, many dead MMOs have encountered on their slow, painful declines: The "vital few" are also the deadly many, if they're allowed to become the many.

The "vital few" become dangerous to a game's health when they get chased at the expense of most other considerations. Worse, it's a terrible siren song, because by chasing those "vital few," you almost always earn significantly more in the short term, but destroy the long-term health of a game in the process. This is how many widely-disliked gaming companies make their profits: they buy out MMOs that are in decline, slash staff down to a skeleton crew, prioritize low-effort high-yield products that game-loyalists and hardcore dedicated players will snap up, ignore the onboarding process for new players, and squeeze every last drop out of pre-existing material they can. This drives the operating cost down to almost nothing, while boosting incomes temporarily sky-high. For a year, maybe a couple years (which is an age in video game time), this can even look sustainable--but what's going on under the hood is the slow hollowing-out and breakdown of the community that keeps the game alive.

Once the community has nothing left to hollow out, players start drifting away en masse. You always lose some players over time, that's just the nature of the beast, doesn't matter what product you're selling you will lose part of your customer base (at the very least, because customers have a frustrating habit of dying a small percentage of the time.) But once the community goodwill and remaining creative and social capital have been exhausted, people notice. Quality declines, interest wanes, and the (supposedly) non-"vital few" disappear, often at an alarmingly fast rate. The "vital few" linger on so long as they can continue to bear doing so, because humans are weird about commitment and not leaving a relationship they've grown used to even when it's bad for them. ("...all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.")

And, you may note, there's certain similarities between the above process, which has happened many times with MMOs, and what happened with 5e. It was an edition incredibly self-consciously targeting "lapsed" fans and the appearance of traditionalism; the corporate overlords cut WotC staff down to a skeleton crew, to the point that a single person being on jury duty was enough to delay important work; early on, products were primarily aimed at the "vital few."

But then that started to change, didn't it? And the "vital few" started to get upset that they weren't the ones primarily catered to. (Consider the hue and cry about the "Disneyfication" of D&D products over the last year or two, or the anger about alignment being largely dropped, or flexible stat bonuses, or other such changes.) WotC has started (whether or not they realize it) to address the whole, not just the "vital few," because it turns out those allegedly non-"vital few" players are actually super important for ensuring that the "vital few" actually do keep playing.

Pissing off the "vital few" completely is unwise, to be sure. The 80/20 rule remains relevant; 80% of your profits come from 20% of your customers, or thereabouts. But catering to them exclusively is worse in the long run, even if it is great in the short run. You can always, at least in theory, grow a new "vital few" focused on a different set of priorities, so long as you survive the lean times before the new one grows. It's very difficult--as WotC is seeing right now--to pull back from heavy focus on the so-called "vital few," but if you can't, if you get pulled deeper and deeper into their gravity well, you will eventually crash.

I wonder how many of those new players will show the same level of dedication when D&D's current cultural apogee inevitably wanes?
Well, per the Pareto principle, probably about 20%. Which, not-so-coincidentally, is (very roughly) the expected proportion of DMs out of the whole population.

But perhaps we should keep in mind the lesson of video rental stores, as mentioned in the Wiki article you linked, and which reinforces the points I made above: the video stores had to offer rarely-watched tapes like Gone With the Wind and Casablanca, even though these were basically just taking up shelf space for negative net profit, because not having these videos available for rent made it seem like the store had an inadequate library.

Ignoring or skimping on service for the 80% of your customers that only bring in 20% of your business is a great way to borrow tomorrow's profits for today. The 20% need the 80% in order to exist, even if they often look down their noses at the 80%.
 
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Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Unfortunately, there's a pretty big problem with excessive focus on grognards, one that many, many dead MMOs have encountered on their slow, painful declines: The "vital few" are also the deadly many, if they're allowed to become the many.
For all the talk about the issues that come with making TTRPGs more like MMOs in terms of the play experience (itself a rather inflammatory topic, as the former being like the latter is often taken as a pejorative), I'm not sure that it's germane to discuss the latter's sales methods in terms of the former; they're simply too different to draw a relevant parallel.

Shades of this can be seen in the recent OGL debacle, where WotC was accused (credibly so, to my mind) of pursuing an enhanced revenue stream for D&D by bringing a large portion of its play online, with the tiered subscription fees and inherent micro-transactions that typify MMO play. Naturally, the fan-base rebelled, and while a large part of that was due to the announced revocation of the OGL in favor of a much more restricted license, no one was happy about the leaked plans for the new online setup either, as I recall.

But that's largely a digression; the more central point is that you can't really compare the Pareto principle's application of a TTRPG to an MMO, because the methods of engagement are very different. While MMOs are collaborative in terms of the players being able to interact, the experience unto itself can be as singular or as group-oriented as an individual player wants it to be. Leaving aside "raid quests" and other activities which require a group (and presuming that there's no single-player equivalent, which I believe D&D Online had), it's entirely possible to treat an MMO as an expansive single-player game with rather lively NPCs, instead of being a group activity.

Notwithstanding solo-specific modules (and, I suppose, people intent on playing group-focused TTRPGs solitarily, though I'm not sure I've heard of anyone doing that on anything more than a brief lark), you can't really get that from a tabletop role-playing game. Unlike an MMO, there's no graphics or sound or quest-giving program which will still be present if there's no one there. Barring the books being an enjoyable read unto themselves, you have to have a group (or at least one other person to play while you GM, or GM while you play) in order to engage with the game.

That's important here because (I think) it changes the dynamic in question with regard to how the 80/20 split functions. The grognards for a TTRPG aren't simply a dedicated base who buys everything that comes out (though they absolutely can be), providing a core revenue stream which the company then looks to build on, but also serve as a dedicated outreach group, evangelizing the experience. While diehard fans of any particular pastime are likely to tout its merits, TTRPG grognards act as potential mentors to a degree which (again, in my opinion) eclipses most other hobbies – certainly MMOs – as they create a path to entry which requires simply showing up to play, without the need to download or install anything, create an account, or work out any technical issues which may arise (at least outside of VTT play).

In other words, at least as far as TTRPGs are concerned, the 20% help to bring in the other 80%, and while catering to any particular segment of the fanbase runs the risk of selection bias, fans who make other fans are the most valuable fans (or at least, I'd expect WotC to see to see it that way). To that end, I don't think it's an issue of "chasing grognards exclusively," there's very much a middle ground between that and completely pushing them away, which (to my mind) has been a lot of what's been happening lately; cameos by the characters from the old D&D cartoon are nice and all, but the play experience of older editions has been increasingly ignored in favor of an alternative play-style which (from what WotC seems to think) will be more appealing to new fans unto itself, relying on pop culture references to have already primed the proverbial pump in terms of drawing fans in the first place.

To that extent, it seems more to me that the dangers of focusing exclusively on grognards in an MMO manner are both overblown and inapplicable, as WotC seems to be going too far in the other direction. The current strategy for bringing new fans in seems to present D&D as a pastime rather than a hobby, and while there's always going to be some people who only ever dabble in the game (traditionally as much as 80% of them), I worry about the dedication of the fan-base which that cultivates. While some will invariably become diehards in their own right (i.e. tomorrow's grognards), I think that presenting D&D as something can be engaged with (if what we heard about WotC's VTT plans are true) in a manner similar to "idle games" (if that's what they're called now), and whose interest comes less from what you can create on your own (either in terms of your own character or making your own campaign world) and more from a passing desire to try what you've seen on Stranger Things or Critical Role, will result in an overall decrease in that sort of dedication. Overblown though it may be, the "Matt Mercer effect" is real.

Now, it's entirely possible that I'm overthinking things, and that most fans will still overwhelmingly go for traditional (non-digital) play, with the usual number becoming dedicated evangelists. But if not, if we see a shift in the overall method of engagement which de-emphasizes what grognards bring to the table, then I worry about what will happen when D&D's time in the pop culture limelight inevitably comes to an end; I'm not sure if "evergreen properties" are real or not, but if they are I'm not sure that D&D can become one of them to the same degree as Star Wars or the MCU, though it's clear that WotC/Hasbro desperately wants that to be the case. Should it turn out not to be, and the hobby experiences a contraction that's at all proportional to the popularity it's enjoyed over the last few years, then a group of grognards would be among the few things left to cushion its fall.

But WotC doesn't seem interested in contemplating the possibility of failure, and instead is aiming for ever-higher success without looking down. Given their recent missteps with regard to the community, this attitude doesn't engender me with a lot of confidence, and though I might be accused of being a doomsayer, I can't help but be nervous about what a grognard-free D&D might end up looking like.
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
Happy to do so, once WotC makes it possible for me to buy new copies (doesn't have to be print, pdf would suffice) of the 2014 5e PHB, just like I can buy pdfs of the 70's 1e PHB, or the 80s/90s 2e PHB, or the 2001 3.0 PHB

Me, reading this ......

sound-of-silence-zoom.gif


I have to admit, this is one of the stranger threads I have read. We are now at the point where people are saying that WoTC is making it impossible to buy copies of the 5e PHB.

Which goes to show why some people (such as the OP) are really, really annoyed by the Kobold Press FUD release.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
D&D Beyond will drop support for those "Legacy" products at some point, when maintaining the codebase that supports them starts getting in the way of adding new content. We'll probably still be able to access the text of those books, but their content won't be integrated in the character builder etc.
Backwards compatibility is the watchword for how D&D is working moving forward...so I doubt it.
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
Backwards compatibility is the watchword for how D&D is working moving forward...so I doubt it.

This whole debate is also weird to me. Given I've written before about the interoperability of the entire TSR era, I don't get this at all. Perhaps it's because people have become more used to the discontinuities between 3e, 4e, and 5e?

But the entirety of D&D products from 1974 - 2000 were interoperable; you could run B2 (written for OD&D, included with Moldvay Basic) in 2e AD&D. Sure, there were certainly extremes that became more difficult to translate and balance; the difference between OD&D using just the LBBs in 1974 and late-period 2e with all the kits and player options in the late 90s could be large, and yet ... fundamentally, they were the same system.

Given we don't know what OneD&D will look like yet, all the weird argument over it seems misplaced. It is likely to be more compatible than many of the alternate systems we see right now (such as LevelUp or whatever Kobold Press is working on). But maybe not! We don't know yet.

But the question is - will it be "different" in the sense that Moldvay Basic is different than Mentzer Basic? Or will it be "different" in the sense that the AD&D 1e PHB is different than the 2e PHB? And if either of those is the case, isn't a refreshed game that incorporates some of the changes that have occurred a reasonable thing 10 years into the lifespan of the product?
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
This whole debate is also weird to me. Given I've written before about the interoperability of the entire TSR era, I don't get this at all. Perhaps it's because people have become more used to the discontinuities between 3e, 4e, and 5e?

But the entirety of D&D products from 1974 - 2000 were interoperable; you could run B2 (written for OD&D, included with Moldvay Basic) in 2e AD&D. Sure, there were certainly extremes that became more difficult to translate and balance; the difference between OD&D using just the LBBs in 1974 and late-period 2e with all the kits and player options in the late 90s could be large, and yet ... fundamentally, they were the same system.

Given we don't know what OneD&D will look like yet, all the weird argument over it seems misplaced. It is likely to be more compatible than many of the alternate systems we see right now (such as LevelUp or whatever Kobold Press is working on). But maybe not! We don't know yet.

But the question is - will it be "different" in the sense that Moldvay Basic is different than Mentzer Basic? Or will it be "different" in the sense that the AD&D 1e PHB is different than the 2e PHB? And if either of those is the case, isn't a refreshed game that incorporates some of the changes that have occurred a reasonable thing 10 years into the lifespan of the product?
On an individual basis, depending on how you feel about the changes in question.
 


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