KotS A TPK turned Capture (Advice, Spoilers)

[Jack99]

I thought I read/heard somewhere that a monster's treasure is usually already factored into its description. Or something like that. Basically, that adding magic item effects to monsters would make them more powerful than they're meant to be.

Of course, I can't find this info anywhere, but I distinctly remember reading/hearing it.

It's in this excerpt - But since the monster grabbing his flaming axe has a magic threshold of +0, it would still benefit from a +1 axe (you subtract the "magic threshold" from the +'s of the magic item that you give to the monster). On a side note, no matter what, it would still benefit from the powers the weapon has (I believe at least, no evidence for, but nor against afaik anyway).

Cheers

 

[WalterKovacs]

One thing about the skill challenge ... the players basically HAVE to escape right? Otherwise the adventure ends. [Well, "at some point" ... they could be given another chance to escape at some later point in their imprisonment perhaps].

So, since the basic premise of skill challenges aren't "skill checks you have to make to advance the story" ... but instead where there are rewards for success, and punishment for failure.

One possibility is that, if they succeed, they are able to get some basic gear, while failure could perhaps cause a permanent loss of some important piece of loot.

For example, the guards may have some of their gear. If they succeed, they not only escape, but also grabbed some of their stuff back [at least weapons/implements/holy symbols that are required to be able to use powers]. If they fail, they may be able to barely escape [if they do escape at all] but without their stuff ... and it will be very difficult to get them back.

 

[thewok]

It's in this excerpt ....

Thanks. I knew I saw that somewhere.

I was referring to Irontooth (a level 3 elite brute) wearing +1 armor. I thought his stats might already have factored in the +1 dwarven chain, as his description mentions his wearing chain. However, I read further, and the magic armor is locked inside a chest inside the lair. So, letting him wear the armor wasn't giving double bonuses as I had thought it might.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

One thing about the skill challenge ... the players basically HAVE to escape right?

Very good point, and along the lines of my own thinking. Failure will likely result in some "punishment" beyond failing to excape. (Although I suppose if it is a catastrophic failure I could have them re-captured and allow for another escape attempt, but set it AFTER they are sold to bloodreavers and now they escape from a slave-wagon on a treaturous moutain pass....)

I'll give it some thought and give y'all a write-up.

Fitz

 

[Cyronax]

Very good point, and along the lines of my own thinking. Failure will likely result in some "punishment" beyond failing to excape. (Although I suppose if it is a catastrophic failure I could have them re-captured and allow for another escape attempt, but set it AFTER they are sold to bloodreavers and now they escape from a slave-wagon on a treaturous moutain pass....)

I'll give it some thought and give y'all a write-up.

Fitz

I ran a big chunk of KotS tonight. I had four PCs (and I tried to scale accordingly): tiefling warlord, halfling rogue, dragonborn paladin, and the human wizard. They did fine with the road ambush and the burial site (which they decided to tackle first due to a fairly complete map of the encounter sites ... gleaned through a skill challenge with a captured kobold dragonshield). The kobold lair outside went well (and I used it as written). The party unfortunately and knowingly provoked the kobolds inside the lair. They had the option of doing hit and run attacks, but instead they chose to bust in the lair after they got through the kobolds outside.

All but the warlord were taken down. The dragonborn paladin died outright (three failed saves), while the wizard and rogue are probably captured. The warlord escaped and is heading back to town to look for help. She already has an inkling that the kobolds may be related to some sort of strange foreigner (the Orcus priest) that was sighted near the ruins of the KotS.

To scale the Kobold lair down for four players, I took out two skirmishers, six minions (three outside and inside), one dragonshield, and lowered the AC of the Wyrmpriest to 15. A big mistake I may have made was letting Irontooth wear the Dwarven Armor. He is so powerful.

Nonetheless, all the players were amazed at how much stuff happened round to round for a 1st level adventure. They had fun, despite the deaths and captures.

Conclusion: DM be careful with kobolds ... they are pretty nasty, and that was without using traps

C.I.D.

 

[Vaeron]

I'd like to add that this encounter has produced not 1, but 2 TPKs for me. An initial, and then one I did playing the characters and the monsters to see what went wrong. Characters start out with all encounter powers available, all dailys available, all within 3 HP of max, but Healing Words and the fighter's 2nd Wind used up by the 1st wave. Nevertheless, they are all wiped out long before Irontooth is even bloodied, due in large part to the Wyrmpriest shifting in and out of cover with his Orb. 10 range is a lot for a 1d10+3 damage attack that's +6 vs Reflex (aka a hit on any roll that's over a 7 or so, for most of the PCs).

In the trial I ran on my own the fighter and paladin both went down in the third round of combat even after a Beacon of Hope, cut to pieces by the dragonshields, the goblin, and nuked by the wyrmpriest, and the other party members were eliminated in short order.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I ran a big chunk of KotS tonight...

Thanks for sharing! Are you going to run the group spit up with the Warlord picking up a new recruit (for the pally's player) and the other two working on an escape plan? Perhaps you could have the Warlord and the NR stage a rescue against some Hobgoblin slavers with the other two starting locked in a slave wagon...

Fitz

 

[Digital M@]

Another option for the player stuff is to have it sold back into the town of Winterhaven. The spy could sell it and while shopping, the PCs see their stuff and realize there is a snitch inside the town. It could be a few days or weeks before it shows up in town, but it provides another plot hook.

 

[Cyronax]

Thanks for sharing! Are you going to run the group spit up with the Warlord picking up a new recruit (for the pally's player) and the other two working on an escape plan? Perhaps you could have the Warlord and the NR stage a rescue against some Hobgoblin slavers with the other two starting locked in a slave wagon...

Fitz

I actually offered them a slight do over (as in we consider that they ran away), since we forgot to include a few extra +d8's from the rogue. The rogue could have been much more effective than he was played (and no insult to the player ..... in this case he was distracted most of the night for good reason ... long story). Anyway, my group has the option ...... if they play things as they lay, then its definitely a split session. I might have the players get new characters as rescuers. The only problem facing that part is that I gamed out winterhaven to be soooo remote that there were very few classed individuals around (which would imply a lengthy captivity as the warlord gathered able allies).

And yes, the hobgoblin slavers might come into play if they don't want to the do-over. I might also just want the Orcus priest to question them personally , allowing them a path to the Keep. It might turn into a Slavers-style adventure ...... or maybe an Indiana Jones vs. sacrifice adventure ... so fitting given ole Indie's return.

Either way ... I and my players like the system so far. I'm very optimistic.

C.I.D.

 

[Graf]

The point of the except isn't that the monsters have magical gear, instead the point is that the monster's stats already factor in generalized level bonuses (including stuff that comes from magic).

In effect they've got some "built in" + items.

I guess I appreciate people's feeligs regarding having it be realistic, but think about it as an homage to 1e games, so a new generation of gamers starting at KotS are going to have the same referece points, and appreciate things like goblins and the poorly locked chest.