KotS DM Discussion Thread (spoilers)

[Badapple]

I wish I would have read this thread before running KotS. I definately would have used the idea of Douvren Stahl being locked up in a cell, slated to die soon. Escorting him back to Winterfell would have been perfect for triggering the graveyard interlude. As it is, my players chose not to return to Winterfell to take their extended rests, so it would have been nice to have a reason for them to.

I had the mirror be a minor magic item from the age of Nerath with the property of reflecting back a glimpse of the Shadowfell. Since the Shadowfell is a shadowy reflection of the regular world, with roughly the same geographical paralells, I thought it would be cool for the mirror to be a viewing divice into the Shadowfell. So if the players are in a forest, they look in the mirror they see stark, shadowy trees, if they are in the mountains they see shadowy bleak mountains, if they are underground they see misty, shadowy hallways, etc. It gave a good plot reason for arcane trained characters to explain the Shadowfell to the party, and foreshadow how the shadowfell is involved in the overall storyline.

 

[Badapple]

Oh, also the wizard player's background had her attending a university where her magical talents were recognized and trained. So I had Douvren Stahl be a teacher from that university who taught an Archeology class. So the characters wtih trained Dungeoneering were former students invited to join Douvren in Winterfell on a dig.

Of course Douvren is all theory and the kind of bookish archeologist who will spend months at the burial site recovering a mirror and a couple dragon bones, rather than go into the Nerathian keep where the actual monsters and treasures are but that's part of the charm.. and the ultimate distinction between action adventurers and knowledgeable non combat npcs. It's fun whenever Dungeoneering players roll skill checks for at least the heroic tier of this campaign because I get to say stuff like "You remember professor Stahls lecture's about a rare living slime that thrives in water..." etc etc

 

[pukunui]

Badapple: I like the bit about "You remember one of Staul's lectures ..." Since all of my group's PCs learned from him, I might use that whenever they make Dungeoneering or associated checks.

 

[Byrons_Ghost]

I have a smaller group (4-5 PCs) and we only meet once or twice a month, so I've been scaling back the module some. I removed a number of encounters that seemed either redundant or pointless, including:

the burial site
the 2nd kobold ambush on the way to the caves
the expedition room
the entire cavern complex on the first floor
the room of the infinite undead

As it is, we've been playing since June, and the PCs have just now defeated Balgrim, so the pace we're moving at definately calls for the module to be trimmed. We average about 2-3 encounters per night, I'd say. I'll probably drop one of the undead rooms in level 2, and the trap, and maybe the gelatinous cube (still haven't decided yet).

Other things:

Valthrun- I didn't like how the module has him string PCs along, or just not be present at first. So I had him be absent from his tower, and then had his disappearance work into the plot. Since I'd taken out the burial site, I moved the magical amulet and gave it to Irontooth. Inside the amulet was a picture of a woman, who the PCs learned was Valthrun's mother.

This led them to suspect foul play, and they eventually found Valthrun imprisoned in the torture chamber at the Keep. Once they'd finally rescued him (rather than just waiting for the right time in the module to meet him), they were able to get most of the keep's back story (along with a couple of scrolls). They'll get the rest from Keegan's ghost when they meet him.

Keegan- I'm not sure how I'm going to handle him, as I don't really like the Q & A in the module. My plan right now is to have them encounter a ghostly scene where Keegan is slaying his family. This is either Keegan's test to them, or he is actually trapped in this recurring haunt. Either way, stopping him will put the spirits to rest and earn Keegan's trust.

Balgrim the fat- He was actually captured rather than killed. No one was fooled by his attempt to hide behind the curtain, and the strikers went straight for him while the defender kept the minions busy. The fight was over pretty quickly, and Balgrim surrendered. The PCs questioned him, then decided to take him to Lord Padraig for justice. Balgrim has been holding back some information, and will attempt to negotiate his freedom with Lord Padraig (he realizes the PCs won't let him go).

Pigeons- The module never said how the keep, kobolds, and cult were communicating back and forth. Presumably Ninaren was acting as courier. The PCs would never learn that, so I had carrier pigeons discovered with the notes at the kobold and goblin caves. This let the PCs know that things were organized, and that there was a spy in town. I expected them to go after Ninaren (he sent them to the kobolds, after all) but they never did. I've also decided that a hobgoblin comes up from the keep every evening to look for a pigeon, and this will alert them to the fact that the goblins are dead.

Billy the kobold- He replaced Splug in the torture chamber. Billy was the name given by the players to the incompetend kobold slinger at the kobold waterfall. Due to bad dice and the will of fate, the slinger never scored a single hit, so the party just ignored him in the first encounter. Then he ran into the cave, warned the others, and joined in the second fight- where he STILL didn't score a single hit. He finally ran away as the last survivor. The party joked about him being cross-eyed and a lousy shot, and that they should adopt him as an assistant. So I had him turn up in Splug's place- Billy ran to the goblins like a good minion, told them what happened, and was promptly beaten and imprisoned. He now works for the party, and has even managed to kill a goblin with is dagger.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Some great ideas in this thread.

I'll offer just one minor one which I'm using at the moment - the module says that the zombies and glyphs don't attack the hobgoblins. I've given the hobgoblins small charms which protect them from the zombies and the glyphs (so that clever PCs who obtain them can talk their way further in).

I'm also ignoring the plethora of 'instantly attack and fight to the death' tactics scattered through the adventure. I prefer to allow for the possibility of more negotiation and discussion.

 

[pukunui]

Some great ideas in this thread.

I'll offer just one minor one which I'm using at the moment - the module says that the zombies and glyphs don't attack the hobgoblins. I've given the hobgoblins small charms which protect them from the zombies and the glyphs (so that clever PCs who obtain them can talk their way further in).

That reminds me that I was going to do something along those lines as well.

It also reminded me of something else but then I was distracted and now I've forgotten again.

I'm also ignoring the plethora of 'instantly attack and fight to the death' tactics scattered through the adventure. I prefer to allow for the possibility of more negotiation and discussion.

I've just been reading through H2 and H3 and there's an awful lot of "don't bother to talk, just fight to the death" tactics in them as well -- although, admittedly, there are also quite a few "Let's have a chat first and if things don't go so well, then we'll fight" encounters, which is good.

 

[Byrons_Ghost]

That's funny about the "fight don't talk" encounters. My group has a dragonborn paladin, and he kept trying to negotiate with the kobolds. Since the module offers no support for that, I didn't have much to past saying "Umm, they attack."

So each negotiation ended with the kobolds attacking, and they always fought to the death. Except for Billy, who ran away. Twice.

 

[pukunui]

Latest update:


1) I'm thinking of scrapping my changes to Valthrun and Bairwin. I don't know that making Valthrun a sinister old man will really add much, and I want to keep Bairwin alive so I can use him as one of the hooks to H2.

2) I've decided to change the layout of the keep a bit. I didn't like how the first hobgoblin guard post was just a short stairway away from the zombie-filled crypt area and yet the text assumed that the hobgoblins would not seem to notice anyone fighting the zombies at the top of the stairs and would thus simply call out "What's the password?!"

So instead I've decided to move the bulk of the natural cave to the bottom of the stairs -- but I'm still doing away with the kruthik lair all together and I'm putting the blue slime-spoiled well right where the entrance to the natural cave was before. The entrance to the next level of the dungeon will be through the secret door in the natural cave (originally the little secret store room where Balgron goes to hide). There will be a hole there with a ladder leading down to a small room that then leads into the first hobgoblin guard room.

The way I see it, the second level of the dungeon is part of the Orcus temple and it was originally accessed through the cave. However, the soldiers built their level of the dungeon on top of it and then built the keep on top of that.

It's kind of hard to explain without being able to show you.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

A little note that I've just seen from an Obsidian Portal write up of the game (from my brother Heselbine's game, in fact).

In the penultimate room, with the Underpriest, he had a closing darkness following the characters - so that when the fight was over the darkness had completely blocked the way in. This is a simple but fantastic way, IMO, of making the characters aware of what's going to happen if they don't win out, raising the tension and making the final fight that bit more memorable!

Also, later today I'll add a list of modifications to encounters that I've made, being as I've got anywhere from 5 - 7 players in my group. I've amended each encounter in the book to reflect appropriate XP (by adding monsters) depending on whether I've got 5 (as written), 6 (some monsters added) or 7 players.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Stuff I did:

Cut-Scenes about Keegans story - I made a little something up. I established him as the one that fought against evil, and was responsible for bringing down the dragon. He also made a peace treaty with his Kobold worshippers - I won't have you all killed if you behave from now on. (The burial of the dragon - where the Paladin "negotiates" with the Wyrmpriest, and the fight against the dragon in the waterfall cave where two scenes I described).

The fact that the Kobolds betrayed their promise gave the party a nice motivation to fight them even stronger. When the party entered the Keep, I began talking about how things went wrong with Keegan, beginning with a harmless scene on how he, his wife and his son visit the Keep the first time, ending with a first sign of something dark coming. The next scene with him was him killing his family, and the last scene is him retreating after being cornered (well, not really cornered - he was able to retreat).

So much for Keegan.
----

For the final encounter, I plan to use the skill challenge idea that was on DDI, but a little differently (including adjusted DCs). My idea is - the reason why Kalarel hasn't finished the ritual yet is because he either needs some artifact, or some "sacrifices" - people that face him and the Shadowfell fearlessly (like any good adventurer will do ). When the party enters the final encounter area, he will cackle and say "Ah, finally you have arrived - I have expected you for some time, to conclude this ritual!".

And from now on, the party will have to face a skill challenge and an encounter. Religion, Arcana, Insight, Intimidate, Bluff and Endurance will all be available skills. The party can "sabotage" the ritual with their influence - a failed skill check will deal them damage, while a succesful check will deal damage to Kalarel. This should provide a nice compensation for the minor actions I will require from the PCs to make each check, and also for the fact that they are only 4 characters, not 5. (I might still want to increase the encounter level a little by boosting the NPCs, since the party will be at level 4, not 3, by then).
If they fail the challenge, they won't be able to close the portal, but if they kill Kalarel, it at least won't open further. And if they close it, the "Thing" will of course disappear, which should make the encounter easier again.