Kyle Brink Interviewed by Teos Abadia (Alphastream) on OGL, WotC, & D&D

D&D executive producer's Kyle Brink's second hour-long interview OGL/D&D has dropped--this one is with Teos Abadia, otherwise known as Alphastream. The notes below are my attempt to paraphrase the main things Brink said, but as always you should watch the actual video if you want the full context.

Company Structure
  • There's around 30 people on the D&D team, and that many again freelancers.​
  • The hiring process has equity targets to bring in a representative sample of candidates, after which it is who is the best candidate.​
  • There has been increasing diversity in the pool of designers while maintaining quality.​
  • Brink reports to Dan Rawson, senior VP of D&D, who reports to Cynthia Williams, president.​
  • D&D Beyond is the front door to D&D on the web and will be even more so. It is the D&D website, and will become more so.​
  • D&D Game Studio is center for game content. D&D Beyond turns that into a play service. Content gets expressed in ways appropriate to an audiance (ie digital, book, etc.)​
OGL/Creative Commons
  • It was a surprise to some of the D&D team that the OGL might be changed. Partly that was about shielding them from distracting stuff. Brink feels that was too strong a wall and their views might have been beneficial.
  • Some internal feedback from the D&D team reflected the views of external creators.
  • The community's point of view was not the one wining internally, but may have been had people there been able to speak more loudly.
  • The worry was about new technologies and big companies--Brink uses the VR example, with user generated content but poor content controls. They didn't want the term D&D to become 'that video porn game' looking ahead.
  • The position now is that the community is the strongest weapon against that.
  • The royalties were to discourage big companies moving in and redefining D&D. By 'drips and drips' they got to the wrong position. $750K was a ceiling which they felt would not affect most creators, and larger companies would deal directly with WotC.
  • Right now they're looking at protecting D&D via things not now in the Creative Commons. Community protects the open space and WotC protects copyright and trademark.
  • They feel that the community is able to take care of hateful content.
  • They want the creator community. A deal where WotC got more powers to act but lost the creator community was not a good deal.
  • NFTs are not the concern, it's about how people use them for scams.
  • WotC will be publishing a content policy (for representation, hateful content, etc.) and hold themselves to it. They cannot hold others to it.
  • The Creative Commons license chosen's lack of sharealike attribution isn't a problem for WotC. They want people to build stuff they own and don't have to share and build value in their own IP. They've chosen the road which gives creators the choice, and can make any of their content sharealike, but WotC isn't forcing them to.
  • CC means that nobody has to take WotC's word for anything as they don't control that license.
  • The drive to change the OGL was coming from various parts of the organization (legal, business, studio). It was an ongoing effort when Brink arrived.
  • The faster the audience grew the bigger the risk that hateful content or scams would arise, so there was a rising sense of urgency to take action.
  • Did anybody sign the v1.1 version? It was distributed with an NDA, and with some creators a discussion about other arrnagements/licenses they might make separate from the OGL.
  • 'The impression someone could get that I have to sign v1.1 is absotely a believable impression for someone to get'.
  • The design of v1.1. was always going to be an ongoing no-signature process.
  • Feedback from larger creators like Kobold Press, the failing is on WotC for not communicating that they were listening. 'Thanks for the feedback' isn't enough.
  • 'If you're going to write a new OGL to protect yourself from the vulnerabilties of the old OGL, you kinda have to take the old OGL off the table, otherwise you're not protecting yourself at all'. There's no point in changing the OGL if you don't de-authorize the old one.
  • They weren't worried about competitors arising from within the community. They love the creator community, and WotC can't satisfy all appetites. That serves the broad needs of the player community.
  • They wanted to have closer relationships with the most successful creators, talking to them about licenses and going bigger. The tiering structure was meant to identify those creators. 'The way it was executed was very cleary going to be an attenuating destructive structure which we did not want.'
  • The OGL survey results were clear, from a range of people, 15000 responses. The intent was to treat it like a playtest but it became obvious where it was going. The survey feedback supported CC, and there was no reason to drag it out.
  • WotC still has their concerns, but their approach to it has changed (to a combo of copyrght/trademark and community).
  • Putting D&D into CC has made de-authing the OGL unimportant to WotC.
  • The SRD will be updated to continue to be compatible with evolving rules.
  • They're looking at adding the 3.5 SRD to the SRD but they have to review that content to make sure they're not accidentally putting stuff into CC.
Company Culture
  • People being afraid to speak up is a sign of 'immature management' and leading from ego.
  • That's not the kind of leaders WotC has today, but Brink cannot speak about those who were there before he arrived.
  • Brink feels that every month he is there people feel more comfortable speaking up, though that doesn't mean they'll always agree. But they will listen.
  • 'That's not how we operate today but I can certainly believe echoes of that in the past'.
VTTs/Digital/DDB
  • Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds are important to the hobby and WotC.
  • WotC is also making digital playspaces. The goal is to give more choice. The way WotC succeeds is if they make the best stuff. It's a 'virtuos' competition.
  • The license that Roll20 etc. has to sell WotC content still applies. Remains to be seen down the road.
  • It's possible that third party content will be seen inside DDB or the VTT but it takes a fair amount of work to being a piece of content in. It would have to be a pretty important piece of third party content. Brink could see a day when that would happen.
One D&D
  • The OGL issue has not impacted the One D&D strategy. It has maybe helped WotC express their plans publicly.
  • D&D should be a living game which evolves but is familiar.
  • The One D&D timeline is not changed, but the playtest timeline was impacted by the OGL situation. They'll get back on track real soon.
  • A professional research team gathers the survey information.
  • There are also internal playtests with robust feedback.
Other
  • The game team has gained more of a voice.
  • More trust has been built between design leadership and the executive team.
  • Dan Rawson's role is new and is the first time the D&D brand has been represented at that level at the executive level.
  • Cynthia Williams is empathetic and data-oriented, and willing to change direction.
  • It sounds like they'd consider the SRD being placed into French, German, Italian, and Spanish, though Brink did not promise.
 

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Parmandur

Book-Friend
Thanks for the interview! Kyle Brink makes it plain WotC is not done attempting to de-authorize the OGL v1.0a by the way he discusses copyright and trademark law, as well as the shift to using the CC-BY4 for SRD material at about the 26 minute mark onward.

They are trying very hard to downplay the importance of the OGL v1.0a to the community but it's breach-and-cure protections are vital to working in the SRD space.

It is further discussed at the 39:30 mark under the guise of protecting against things better dealt with under other legal mechanisms -

The protections provided by the OGL v1.0a are irreplaceable and necessary, and the license is being used far beyond the involvement of WotC (Fudge, for example). Brink and WotC are trying to create a narrative whereby the outrage at de-authorizing the OGL v1.0a is simply addressed by releasing the SRD material under the CC-BY4 when it is decidedly NOT. Here he is directly asked about de-authorization and sidesteps his way around it. Check also here at the 45:30 mark.

Specifically he says, "So, in terms of deauthorizing 1.0a, we don't have any plans to go anywhere near the OGL . . . right now. That was the whole point of going to Creative Commons, to make it all moot."

Do NOT fall for it! Stay vigilant! Protect the OGL v1.0a!
Creative Commons is more open, with more protections...? WotC will never go after the OGL for the same reason that most creators will probably move to Creative Commons.
 

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Parmandur

Book-Friend
Regarding quality: quality is not a quantity, and is not a linear spectrum: people prefer the quality "red" or "silver" yo "green" when buying a car, but "red" is not "better" than "green." But there is a correlation of the quality "red" with car sales. People buy things for qualities, but qualities are a complex matrix of valued traits.
 

JEB

Legend
Specifically he says, "So, in terms of deauthorizing 1.0a, we don't have any plans to go anywhere near the OGL . . . right now. That was the whole point of going to Creative Commons, to make it all moot."
I just double checked, and at around 46:20 he does actually say they don't have any plans right now. He included a caveat, despite the rest of the quote above. Hmm.
 

Whizbang Dustyboots

Gnometown Hero
Creative Commons is more open, with more protections...? WotC will never go after the OGL for the same reason that most creators will probably move to Creative Commons.
The SRD is in CC, not the OGL.

Having the SRD in OGL doesn't help people who publish entirely different games under the OGL, like Fudge, as @Mark CMG points out.

And I do think that Hasbro folks correctly assumed many people wouldn't realize that difference and many people -- even many of those who do understand -- only cared insofar as it impacted D&D.

I think there's probably a remedy for these other companies in the form of someone drawing up a new license, but that's expensive and, as we've all learned in recent weeks, harder than it looks. Hopefully ORC will be out soon and it won't be cost-prohibitive for these non-D&D publishers to switch licenses going forward. IANAL, though, so I suspect there are other complications these publishers are facing that I don't understand. (My brain is completely maxed out on legal learning at the moment.)
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
The SRD is in CC, not the OGL.

Having the SRD in OGL doesn't help people who publish entirely different games under the OGL, like Fudge, as @Mark CMG points out.

And I do think that Hasbro folks correctly assumed many people wouldn't realize that difference and many people -- even many of those who do understand -- only cared insofar as it impacted D&D.

I think there's probably a remedy for these other companies in the form of someone drawing up a new license, but that's expensive and, as we've all learned in recent weeks, harder than it looks. Hopefully ORC will be out soon and it won't be cost-prohibitive for these non-D&D publishers to switch licenses going forward. IANAL, though, so I suspect there are other complications these publishers are facing that I don't understand. (My brain is completely maxed out on legal learning at the moment.)
Honestly, I doubt the WotC lawyers give a hoot about any other OGL material.
 


ThorinTeague

Creative/Father/Professor
I don't think the OGL ceased to matter, or rather not for the reason you are implying. D&D will still be the largest market by far, which means it remains attractive for 3pps. The OGL is no longer important though as they can, should, and probably will move to CC instead.
I do not believe that future history will prove this to be true. Speculating.
 




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