L&L 3/05 - Save or Die!

[Kingreaper]

Because only the dm can choose the setting. I like save or die and I won't play in a D&D game where disintegrate makes you go "ouchie, I got a booboo."

So you refuse to play 3.x then I take it?

 

[Scribble]

That just seems boring. "Oh look, a medusa, who cares I have to fail 3 saves to turn to stone. There is no tension until 2 saves are failed. Only minor annoyances such as -2 to hit or whatever, which is not much different than the medusa having leather armor on, or having precast a prayer spell or what have you.

Looking at a medusa with sod present presents an "oh crap" moment as the die bounces across the table, hoping for a good roll. Even high level characters crap their pants, because all 20 sided dies have ones on them.

This I disagree with completely based on the way things played out with the death saves at my 4e table. Each and every roll that counted towards the dreaded three was a tense moment, as the player in question preyed he could hold on just a bit longer until someone might be able to get there and heal him. The anticipation and dread DID grow with each roll, but it never started out "boring."

 

[Mark CMG]

Characters that gaze into Medusa's eyes die.

Not as such, for they are turned to stone. While that seems to have been irrevocable in the myth, not so in the game of D&D. I've played with groups that smashed such a statue and carried off just a finger for the purposes of bringing the victim back. I've played with others who defeated a medusa then revived the entire statuary to build themselves a mercenary group. Turned to stone need not be the end of adventuring.

 

[Dausuul]

Not as such, for they are turned to stone. While that seems to have been irrevocable in the myth, not so in the game of D&D. I've played with groups that smashed such a statue and carried off just a finger for the purposes of bringing the victim back. I've played with others who defeated a medusa then revived the entire statuary to build themselves a mercenary group. Turned to stone need not be the end of adventuring.

This is a good point. If you can undo petrification by (for instance) killing the medusa and using her blood on the victims, then old-school SoD petrification becomes much more tenable. Just make the save easy enough that the medusa is highly unlikely to petrify the whole party at one go.

 

[BryonD]

Must spread XP around before... and all that.

I concur with what you're saying. Save or Die may be able to add excitement and tension to the game, but I think it has an equal or greater potential to be anti-climactic or add frustration to the game.

Again, this only applies to a "win the game" perspective. Which is fine if that is what you want.

But I've been in games in which characters got turned to stone. And I've seen reactions of "Damn!" BUT, these moments were still a ton of fun and remain talking points years later. The instant excitement and rush of what to do now is the absolute opposite of anti-climatic.

On the other hand, if I was a player and circumstances were such that my character looked at Medusa and I got slowed a bit, then that would be a complete and total killjoy then and there. The DM has just told me I can't possibly defeat Medusa and I'm not even allowed to face Medusa. Instead I'm trying to outlast this multiple mulligan style thing with a vague outer resemblance to Medusa.

Defeating Medusa is certainly more fun than losing to Medusa. But losing to Medusa is still huge fun if being in your own version of "me against Medusa" is the goal. But any encounter, win or lose, against a not-Medusa is as fun as a wet paper bag.

Now, all you have to do is stop calling it Medusa and it can be fun, because the anti-fun comes from the fundamental wrongness of it. And, if you just want to play a tactical game with marginal to meaningless narrative substance, then you have a perfectly fun "game" that way as well.

IMO, there are other media that offer these alternatives vastly better than RPGs do. I don't claim that RPGs can't do them, clearly they can. And clearly some people find those to be the high points of their RPG experiences. But the thing that TTRPGs offer in a way that no competition can really compare is story telling with a reasonably consistent system and yet not predestined result. RPG design strays away from its strength at its peril.

 

[NewJeffCT]

I really like Mearls' proposed system.

The only issue I have is that the wizard is always more likely to be turned to stone/disintegrated/etc, due to lower health pools. ( I am assuming that pretty-much-universal-mechanic will remain in Next).

While this may make sense that the wizard is more likely to get hit (and paralyzed) by a ghoul, I think he should have some advantage when dealing with, say, a soul trap.

I hate to bring up "Physical HP" and "Mental HP" again, because it's redundant, but SOME acknowledgement of classes areas of strength needs to be built into the system.

Perhaps the answer is in saving throw modifiers once again?

They're more likely to have to make a save vs being turned to stone - but, they are not necessarily more likely to be petrified. If the wizard's save is better than the fighter's save, it gets balanced out in the long run.

 

[Sunseeker]

That's the kind of thinking that leads to TPKs, my young Padawan.

I know, but in my experience it's easier to wind up with disgruntled players when the other players CHOOSE to let them die. I'd rather my whole party die and everyone start over, pat each other on the back for a good try and cook up a whole new party than make one player feel like a doof for dying and be angry at the party for leaving them.

You could just as easily describe a situation where you manage the task, since you are making it up anyway, but a defeatist mindset isn't going to allow it, I suppose.

I don't think of this as defeatist at all. Even if I've got a TPK on my hands, the party gave it a good try, perhaps the dice were against them, perhaps they screwed up. This is natural and especially against a SOD monster, expected, succeeding against a SOD monster is IMO, supposed to be incredibly tough and basically an "all or nothing" fight.

Sure, I could DM handwave it so that the party successfully carries the newly statuesque Joe out of the dungeon safely, but that feels disingenuous. I've been known to knock over a monster when the party gets them to 1HP instead of zero, but I feel that playing "The DM says so" card robs my players of the risk and associated reward.

In any event, sometimes "defeat" is part of the game and I'm not one to believe that padding all the sharp corners makes the game any more inherently fun. I'm fine with the idea of including some advice for those who think their group needs a less dangerous game but it need not be built into the core for my tastes.

As I've said before, I want SOD to be rare and powerful. While classically a medusa is capable of turning an entire army to stone, it's my opinion that any type of great power has it's limits. Perhaps THE Medusa herself could turn an army to stone, but the ones an adventurer encounters might only have such a power available for 1 or 2 shots and have a variety of lesser stone-gaze powers at more regular disposal.

Taking this kind of approach eliminates the SOD TPK right off the bat, if it's simply not possible for all but the very powerful of gorgons to turn many people to stone at once then the party isn't going to risk a TPK one-shot.

It also places resource management on the side of the monsters as well. A lot of creatures have incredibly powerful abilities that they can use so often they might as well have no limit. If the monster, like the player, has to creativly manage their powers, I think it makes the game much more engaging. Is the medusa going to SOD someone this turn? Maybe she's readied the action, maybe she's used it all up? Who knows? I think that getting creative with SOD will go a lot farther in creating tension than simply telling everyone that they're the newest lawn ornaments in the gorgon's garden.

 

[Mark CMG]

A good point. Though it means were still talking about Medusa.

That is the distinction that *you* are making, though I wouldn't suggest that it needs to hold true from myth-source to game (which I think might be your underlying point).

 

[airwalkrr]

I think the threshold should simply be based on level or hit dice, not hp. There are plenty of spells that have worked this way in the past. One of my favorites is color spray. Used on low-level creatures, it basically ends the combat for any creatures that fail the save, but it never stops being useful. In the Mearls example of the medusa who turns the town guards to stone but leaves the hero (this is a great example btw), perhaps she manages to slow the hero down instead (maybe she only turns his arm to stone, resulting in a slowed effect which is permanent until someone casts stone to flesh). In other words, monsters like these are a real threat to almost everyone, but heroes are a cut above.

But unless they are dramatically altering the way hp works (which I hope they do not do), they should not base this stuff on hp remaining. Power words were always something under-utilized after 2nd edition because they changed the rules for getting hit points (making it much easier to get lots of 'em) without really adjusting the hp thresholds for those spells.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

That just seems boring. "Oh look, a medusa, who cares I have to fail 3 saves to turn to stone. There is no tension until 2 saves are failed. Only minor annoyances such as -2 to hit or whatever, which is not much different than the medusa having leather armor on, or having precast a prayer spell or what have you.

My suggestion was that the stages be flavorful.

I envision movie scenes where the unlucky hero starts turning to stone from the ground up. To emulate that flavor I'd go with 1) immobilized; 2) dazed and immobilized; 3) turned to stone.

The stages can still be impactful and cause growing tension. They don't all have to start at "-2 to hit."

And, as others have said, the individual creature can skip any of those stages the DM wishes to emulate the power of that particular creature. The medusa could go straight to "stage 3." Or all of the medusas in your game could do the same.