L&L 3/05 - Save or Die!

[BryonD]

So you refuse to play 3.x then I take it?

I think you mean 3.5 (and 3.5 RAW at that).
3.X implies any variation and 3.0 Disintegrate was SoD.


I can't speak for JRRNeiklot, but while I prefer the SoD version, the extreme high damage variant also works well enough for me because (A) it almost never comes out different then SoD and (B) in the extreme cases that it does, you can still describe a narrative out in which the character takes terrible damage but isn't slain outright.

Again, I prefer SoD outright and (B) has never actually happened at my table. But the point is that there is no narrative absolute regarding the spell disintegrate and there has always been precedent within the game for saving and taking some damage but not being destroyed.

There are cases for which SSSoD is perfectly valid (poisons, for example)
There are cases in which partial effects are perfectly valid (Disintegrate)
There are case in which the effect is instant and all or nothing (Medusa)

In every case the narrative merits of the item in question drive what is right and what is wrong. It is when you start putting mechanics AHEAD of narrative that you lose the beauty of what RPGs can be.

 

[Mark CMG]

I know, but in my experience it's easier to wind up with disgruntled players when the other players CHOOSE to let them die. I'd rather my whole party die and everyone start over, pat each other on the back for a good try and cook up a whole new party than make one player feel like a doof for dying and be angry at the party for leaving them.

Well, that's the defeatist mindset, I'm afraid, that I don't feel the rules need to protect all groups against. Though I do recognize that you have encountered that with your own group(s?) and would suggest there are problems with that mindset that no amount of rules adjustments would change. The rest of your post goes on to assume the TPK is the norm so I won't go into why that premise makes further posting from me less than productive in this context. No offense, as it has been your experience and I am not saying that it has been otherwise for you and perhaps some others.

 

[airwalkrr]

This I disagree with completely based on the way things played out with the death saves at my 4e table. Each and every roll that counted towards the dreaded three was a tense moment, as the player in question preyed he could hold on just a bit longer until someone might be able to get there and heal him. The anticipation and dread DID grow with each roll, but it never started out "boring."

Well then you and I have had VERY different experiences playing 4e. I have played 4e with a few different groups, and falling unconscious never seems to worry anyone until they already have two failed death saves under their belt. After a PC falls unconscious, it is not uncommon for two players who have never even met each other to say, "Don't worry. You have at LEAST three rounds to heal the fighter before he actually dies." It is actually almost laughable how the 4e "death save" mechanic trivializes the so-called lethality of combat.

 

[DEFCON 1]

The real issue here is making sure DUNGEONMASTERS are aware of what these SoD effects and the monsters that use them mean to their adventures and encounter design.

In 4E, one of the bigger issues was that it was only the monster's power level (minion/standard/elite/solo) that told DMs the kind of thing they were throwing at their parties. Actual effects were not demarcated in that way. As a result, we'd hear stories of DMs creating encounters with 5+ monsters who dished out the Weakened effect, or the Dazed effect etc., because they didn't know any better. And this is the same problem that could creep up with the use of SoD effects. Without being very, very clear about what using like five basilisks in a fight could mean... you'll end up with lots of poorly thought-out encounters with a lot of unexpectedly unwanted results.

I myself have no problems with the regular old Save of Die spells... if for no other reason that I am acutely aware of what they CAN do. Thus, I don't introduce them into an adventure if I'm not willing to accept whatever results might come from them. I think DDN can certainly follow along these lines... it's just imperative that the writers of the Monster Manual make explicit the fact of just what these monsters with these abilities can do.

There are two ways I think you could do it. First is to just put all monsters with SoD effects in Appendix A of the DDN Monster Manual. Appendix A is the "deadliest of the deadly" monster section, and thus any DM who uses a creature from it should really think long and hard before selecting it.

Now if that option doesn't sit well with people (moving certain monsters out of the alphabetically listings into their own little pen)... the second is to make all these monsters with Death, Disintegrate, Petrification, Instant Killing Poison etc. all SOLO monsters (assuming the interpretation of 4E's monster power levels.) That was the one thing they really tried to hit home for us in 4E. The Solo was supposed to be able to take on a party of 5 pretty well (at least in theory). We knew that using a Solo monster was meant to be a big deal. Thus, in DDN if you only gave SoD effects to monsters who are meant to be "Solo"... it immediately tells the DM that this monsters isn't your prototypical one. It's a big deal. It's power is meant to be looked at a little more closely. It's not a creature you send three or four of them out there just on a whim.

If the beholder and the medusa and the ancient dragons have powers that are meant to kick the ever-living crap out of a party and potentially kill them on sight... just make sure the DM is aware of this going in so he makes the active choice to throw this encounter at his players.

 

[BryonD]

My suggestion was that the stages be flavorful.

I envision movie scenes where the unlucky hero starts turning to stone from the ground up.

Can you offer an example?
Did the hero in your example stop turning partway through the process? (ie made a 2nd or 3rd save)

 

[airwalkrr]

edit: double post

 

[Scribble]

Well then you and I have had VERY different experiences playing 4e. I have played 4e with a few different groups, and falling unconscious never seems to worry anyone until they already have two failed death saves under their belt. After a PC falls unconscious, it is not uncommon for two players who have never even met each other to say, "Don't worry. You have at LEAST three rounds to heal the fighter before he actually dies." It is actually almost laughable how the 4e "death save" mechanic trivializes the so-called lethality of combat.

Guess we did because I've never had an experience as you describe. Most of mine was the player begging someone to get to him.

 

[Sunseeker]

Well, that's the defeatist mindset, I'm afraid, that I don't feel the rules need to protect all groups against. Though I do recognize that you have encountered that with your own group(s?) and would suggest there are problems with that mindset that no amount of rules adjustments would change. The rest of your post goes on to assume the TPK is the norm so I won't go into why that premise makes further posting from me less than productive in this context. No offense, as it has been your experience and I am not saying that it has been otherwise for you and perhaps some others.

I think you misunderstand me somewhat. I don't think TPK is the norm for ALL encounters, only that a TPK is likely and expected on my behalf if anything I've bothered to design for a "climactic epic battle" is up to snuff. I want my players to really feel like they've gone up against incredible odds and really pulled it out. I don't throw these things around lightly. I realize that everyone's experience is different, it's simply been mine that whole TPK is often easier to rebound from in a productive manner than a single party death. This is not universal, but I feel the sense of comradeship is greater when everyone tries and dies, as opposed to one guy getting left.

Hey that's just me, remember, in my adventures you're probably going to experience a creature with a SOD once or twice over 20 levels, probably both within the realms of 15-20. These are epic, incredible, amazing battles of life and death that wrap up greater story-arcs. I'd never throw out SOD in random encounters or just mundane dungeon-crawls.

 

[Dausuul]

Can you offer an example?
Did the hero in your example stop turning partway through the process? (ie made a 2nd or 3rd save)

Well, the one example I can think of is Willow, in which

Spoiler

Willow throws a magic petrifying acorn at Queen Bavmorda, who catches it by reflex. At once her hand turns to stone and the petrification starts spreading up her arm. For a few seconds it looks like she's about to become a statue, but then she succeeds in throwing off the effect and her arm and hand revert to living flesh.

It's not common though. That's the only case I can recall.

 

[BryonD]

Well, the one example I can think of is Willow...

It's not common though. That's the only case I can recall.

Thanks

I'd absolutely buy a SSSoD mechanic for that narrative.