L&L 3/05 - Save or Die!

In The Neverending Story, the scene in the swamp. The hero had to fight back against the despair or he would be dragged into the swamp to die.
And I buy that, but it isn't the same thing. I've never disputed that there are other things where multiple saves apply. I even said so. But there are also cases in which it doesn't work well.

I don't think there is ANYONE saying nothing anywhere can have multiple save options. The question at hand is: Is SoD ALSO acceptable.

So if you are only commenting on something we all already agree on, what is your point?

I can recall scenes where a character fights against petrification, continuing to plod forward even though he's turning to stone. I can't think of an example where a character turns back. But I think you're conflating what I proposed in this thread with 4E's SSSoD. I never said anything about turning back. :devil:
I'm conflating your point with the context of this thread.
 

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Lastly, if you are stating that people who dislike or have an issue with straight-up SoD effects just want to "win the game," just want to play a "meaningless narrative substance" game, and any modification to it has an air of "fundamental wrongness" to it, well, I would call all that false and an unnecessarily dismissive statement.
In an absence of context, fair enough. But if we specific a justification of narratively appropriate SoD being "anti-climactic or add(ing) frustration" simply because the character may fail, then the assessment is accurate and reasonable.
 

How about something like:


Medusa Gaze

10d6 - if attack is equal or higher than HP you are petrified (vs save).
If you have more HP than the attack then you are fine. (no damage at all from attack)

You could have a defensive roll that reduces that attack perhaps?

Maybe the defensive roll IS the save roll?



Thinking.........
 

Late to the party and all...

I don't like the the "if you're under X hit points, this is really deadly" ploy - too metagamey for my likes.

Instead, I'd prefer a condition track, somewhat like 4E's disease track. Attack hits, afflicts you with a condition. You get two to three saves to shake it off, and the condition keeps getting worse each time you fail. With enough failures, you're dead (or worse). Even if you make the save, there might be some side effects (lost hit points primarily).
 

the anti-fun comes from the fundamental wrongness of it. And, if you just want to play a tactical game with marginal to meaningless narrative substance, then you have a perfectly fun "game" that way as well.

IMO, there are other media that offer these alternatives vastly better than RPGs do. I don't claim that RPGs can't do them, clearly they can. And clearly some people find those to be the high points of their RPG experiences. But the thing that TTRPGs offer in a way that no competition can really compare is story telling with a reasonably consistent system and yet not predestined result. RPG design strays away from its strength at its peril.
Is it really necessary to imply that everyone who doesn't play like you do is therefore playing some other thing that RPGs can do OK, although other media (TV? movies? videogames? you might at least be specific in your casting of aspersions) do it better?

4e-style SSSoD is not radically different, in it's play, from a system with SoD plus Fate Points - which is a pretty common RPG design. It has nothing at all to do with "story telling" vs "tactical games with marginal to meaningless narrative substance".
 


There's a continuum, of course. You can re-fluff, re-jigger, re-orient, and re-mechanize different elements in different ways.

But the question has to be: to what end?

What is the play benefit of entirely removing SoD mechanics against PC's? The game becomes less swingy, more predictable, less deadly. This is valuable for some games, but it's certainly not a style everyone appreciates.

What is the benefit of SoD mechanics, when they are used? The game becomes more swingy, less predictable, more dynamic. This is also valuable for some games, but it's certainly not a style everyone appreciates.

Myself, I tend to prefer swing. I like the game to go from OH NO to OH BOY a lot. So killing a PC is fine, and raising it the next round with some bonus is also fine -- instant death, instant resurrection. In fact, if you're dead for longer than a few rounds, you're DEAD, dead.

But in keeping that symmetry, you could say ritual resurrection, ritual death. You can only cause instant death via ritual (something like the folklore surrounding voodoo dolls, or even older shamanism), and raising someone is likewise a difficult task. Time is probably less of an issue here, but there are probably some limits: died within a day, or a week.

Or you could say that no one ever really dies, and thus no one ever has to get raised (the 4e solution, in a functional way, IMXP).

I'd personally do a different answer for each creature, like thus:
  • Basilisk: Meeting their gaze turns you to stone, but you get a save every round to throw it off.
  • Medusa: Meeting their gaze turns you to stone instantly and forever; they are high-level, Solo encounters ("Boss Monsters"), and you will need rituals to undo their effects (though you should have the requisite rituals at the level at which you're encountering them).
  • Banshee: Hearing their voice deals necrotic damage (it ages you). Most common folk (at single-digit HP) die instantly, but heroes can endure it for a time.
  • Ghoul: You get to save each round against the paralysis.
  • Sirens: Their voices dominate you, but you can save each round against it.
  • Assassins: They deal enough damage, once in the encounter, during a surprise round, to kill you in one blow. After that, they're less threatening.
  • Spawning Undead: If they kill you, you rise as their spawn. A ritual is required to help lay your soul to rest (and then you can maybe be raised).
  • Vampire: As a "boss monster," it's save-or-be-dominated.
  • Deadly Poison: It's save-or-die time.

etc.

I don't mind save-or-die effects in certain roles, though certainly I think 1e and 2e may have overdone it a bit (and 3e largely kept the same dynamic). The bypassing of HP isn't inherently a problem for me -- it adds variety and dynamics to the gameplay, which makes things more interesting.

I'm not sold on the "reduce it to X hp first" trick as a panacea, because that still mandates the whole "whittle it down" approach. That should not always be the approach that a party takes to combat. Sometimes, the party should take a "kill it quick before it kills you" approach, or the "ambush attack!" approach, and not every combat should be an X-round slogfest.
 

I'd start with "What kind of play experience do you want to have?"

I'm thinking of the Medusa, and here's how I'd want it to work:

* Low-level characters just get turned to stone instantly

* Higher-level characters turn to stone slowly, but can fight through the effect, and it dispels when the Medusa dies

(So the powerful warrior can stagger towards Medusa, slowly turning to stone, slowing down, stiffening up, and finally gets to melee range just as he's almost done, and swings, lopping her head off*.)

*Also, I could do with some good decapitation and dismemberment rules for killing monsters.
 

Late to the party and all...

I don't like the the "if you're under X hit points, this is really deadly" ploy - too metagamey for my likes.

Instead, I'd prefer a condition track, somewhat like 4E's disease track. Attack hits, afflicts you with a condition. You get two to three saves to shake it off, and the condition keeps getting worse each time you fail. With enough failures, you're dead (or worse). Even if you make the save, there might be some side effects (lost hit points primarily).
While I wouldn't mind a condition track, I don't see a hp threshold as particularly metagamey.

The orc barbarian crits you with his greataxe! You take 25 points of damage!
If you had 25 hp or less, the greataxe smashes into your chest, and you are now dying.
If you had 26 hp or more, you manage to dodge aside at the last second, perhaps sustaining a serious cut, but you are still alive.

The red dragon breathes, sending a blast of flame at you! You take 25 points of damage!
If you had 25 hp or less, you are caught in the centre of the blast, and are now dying.
If you had 26 hp or more, you manage to duck under the flames at the last second. You might be scorched, but you are still alive.

The medusa glances at you, hoping to subject you to her petrifying gaze!
If you had 25 hp or less, you stare the medusa full in the face. Make a saving throw or be turned to stone.
If you had 26 hp or more, you manage to avert your eyes at the last second. You are not petrified ... yet.
 


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