D&D 5E L&L December 16th Can you feel it?

That's fine, but it prevents some perfectly valid and fun scenarios.

I almost always refer back to what I think as the atypical D&D adventure: An ancient tomb created by a powerful wizard forgotten by time. The wizard was so greedy that even in death he wanted to make sure no one took his wealth, so he created a dungeon filled with powerful magic traps and creatures who would guard his treasure for all eternity. There is but one record left of the tomb's existence and it happens to come across the PCs path. Will the PCs go and find the ancient wizards fortune? Can they beat the traps, monsters, puzzles, and obstacles put into their way to get to the end?

Of course they do, they are the heroes of the story, and like all heroes they will be the first people to defeat the traps and get to the end because they have the skills necessary to do so, far beyond that of normal people. They are all good fighters, they are all skilled in navigating hazards like the kind they'll come upon in the dungeon.

The ancient wizard was tricky and hid the treasure beyond many secret doors and traps. Success requires finding all the secret doors and avoiding or disabling all the traps. Which they will, eventually, by persistence and skill. Because otherwise, the story is about a bunch of bumbling idiots who found their way into an ancient tomb and FAILED to get past the traps to find the treasure. That's what happens in real life, not in fantasy stories.

The last person in couldn't have left the secret door open because there has never been another person in here. There is no hidden map of the place because that would defeat the point of making an almost impossible to navigate tomb to protect your treasure. There are no people who you can ask who will give you hints as there's no one left alive who knows the inside. There's just not a good story reason to leave the door open. It makes a better story for there to be a secret door and the PCs to find it than to not have a secret door or have it mysteriously open.

That sounds like a great classic fantasy story- just tell it, including the inevitable ending and get on with the game. If succeeding all the way through is a guarantee why are we playing again?

That's not heroic. That's dumb luck. Marvel at the prowess of the great wizard who, though completely inept at combat, stood in front of the enemies and hoped that the DM miraculously rolled poorly enough for him to survive.

That scenario conjures images of a frail elf in robes walking up to a line of goblins and closing his eyes and holding a staff out in front of him while the goblins tripped over their own feet repeatedly just as they were about to swing.

I'd prefer heroes like Gandalf in the Lord of the Rings movies who kills a number of Orcs in a couple of seconds with his sword than the above scenario.

There's a reason that everyone in the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings eventually learns to fight. They wouldn't be decent adventurers if they didn't.

Not heroic? I think that heroism has sadly undergone a change in definition in the gaming world. Only taking action when the circumstances prop you up to more than up to the task is LESS heroic IMHO than what that elf's player did. Someone immune to bullets running out and grabbing a fallen comrade is less heroic than a regular guy doing the same thing.
 

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Tom Strickland

First Post
Ah, the ever-debatable verisimilitude of falling (and surviving) in D&D:

On 26 January 1972, an explosion on JAT Flight 367, while over Srbská Kamenice in Czechoslovakia caused the plane to break apart. Vulović, 22 years old at the time, was a flight attendant on board...Vulović fell approximately 10,160 metres (33,330 ft). She suffered a fractured skull, three broken vertebrae (one crushed completely) that left her temporarily paralyzed from the waist down, and two broken legs. She was in a coma for 27 days...The man who found me, says I was very lucky...Vulović continued working for JAT at a desk job following a full recovery from her injuries. She regained the use of her legs after surgery and continued to fly sporadically...Vulović was awarded the Guinness Record title by Paul McCartney at a ceremony in 1985. (Wikipedia: Vesna Vulović)

Also, regarding hit points as an abstraction for surviving injuries, I years ago met a friend of a friend who had suffered almost 50 deep stab wounds while initially sleeping--inflicted with a kitchen knife by a deranged lover. He took his shirt off to show a bunch of people and there were numerous, inch-long, wide-ish scars all over his chest, abdomen and back. He said he was rushed to the hospital and almost died, but he did, in fact, survive.

Consequently: I remain untroubled by game narratives and mechanics that imply some amazing/heroic/unbelievable-in-the-real-world experiences can happen.
 
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pemerton

Legend
On the 10 foot fall thing...even I don't think I'd be killed on a calculated 10 foot fall.
Damage from falling 10' is 1d6 whether or not the fall is calculated (eg falling unexpectedly down a pit trap). A character can't know that s/he is unable to break his/her neck falling down a pit trap - but a player can know that of the character.

I don't get all this obsession with realistic falls. It's not very realistic to walk away easily from being punctured by a long blade and what about being hit by a giant? Realistically a character ought to be reduced to a pulp.
Sure. The same point applies - namely, there is knowledge and motivation that the player has which the character lacks. Which seems at odds with the way Mearls characterised the desired decision-making process.

I don't think HP are meant to be taken that literally. They are a good mechanic in that they are intuitive: The more hurt you get, the closer you get to dying. Both your character and the player know this and understand this: Avoid losing hitpoints and you avoid dying.
Sure, if you avoid falling or getting stabbed you'll avoid ding. It's the converse that I'm talking about - namely, knowing that you can't be killed by a stab or by a fall.

Your character is fairly certain he's healthy enough and skilled enough to avoid a sword thrust by a lowly goblin or a simple 10 foot fall. He knows how much he hurts and he knows how skilled he is.
There are plenty of games which geneate "fair certainty". D&D gives absolute certainty. Having GMed and played both sorts of game, I know that they play very differently.

Which is a feature, not a bug. But does seemto contradict the stated design goal for the "feel" of D&Dnext.
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
"I can be take one more sword blow before I'm killed." "I can fall down one more 10' pit trap before I'm in danger of breaking my neck?" What does either of these correspond to from the character's point of view?

Because how many spells you can cast in a day is something your character knows. How many HPs your character has actually isn't. You may have a general idea of how tough you are, due to being very constitutional, but your character doesn't know they've got exactly 30 HP.
 

Tom Strickland

First Post
[Edit: I am very happy to report that the constructing of this post did not involve harm to animals, and additionally was not considered to be wasteful, grief-laden, off-kilter, insane, nor lacking in right-mindedness!]

[Edit 2: Also, I would never have dreamed it was necessary in a role-playing game forum, but I must apparently disclose and disclaim that: this is a forum about D&D and not any of the numerous other systems; these are my opinions formed by decades of involvement and by largely accepting the principles espoused by the designers and pundits; I have stated these to the best of my ability; they represent analyses and assertions pertaining to a fictional GAME with its own internally "consistent" mathematical model; and lastly, that I have every right under the sun to hold my own opinion about a game, and find it laughable when others swarm to impugn me directly for my...opinions about a...game.]

Regarding the abstraction of hit points and their increase with level representing greater survivability:

The Hunted: ***SPOILER ALERT*** In the final knife-fight (melee) scene, there are several grievous wounds but none until the end were lethal or mortal. An untrained/inexperienced combatant would have gone down almost immediately with perhaps only nicking the skilled/experienced fighter despite using the exact same type of weapon (d4 or whatever plus some modifiers due to strength or feats).

Young Guns: ***SPOILER ALERT*** A grizzled old guy with his profile-masking duster in a matter-of-fact manner gets to it against several proficient gunslingers—including dropping slightly to reduce his target area, using boldness to affect enemy morale, and relocating to a tactically advantageous (esp. versus ranged weapons) structure providing high cover and concealment. Every opponent in that setting had rapid-fire ranged weapons with penetrating power and a single bullet to a vital area would have ended it for that person. Why did it continue for some dramatic minutes instead of being just an immediate resolution: their quarry goes down while potentially bringing one or two with him?

Morale (non-fiction): “As long as an army was reasonably well fed, had adequate clothing and shelter, and could expect to be paid more or less regularly, its morale might be considered adequate to the task at hand. Belief in a “cause” was thought less important than strong affection for a leader, or the promise of glory or loot. During eras when armies faced each other across open fields, the outcome of battles often hung on the state of morale. An intuitive desire for safety or instinct for survival could lead soldiers to abandon their duty and dissolve into rabble, while those suddenly inspired might snatch victory from defeat.”

Some games specify that characters are immune to influence short of failed-to-resist spells or other effects. They are never forced to advance or retreat (due to morale failure). But perhaps the increased hit points represent that ability to “snatch victory from defeat” despite stacked odds (e.g. having the same types of weapons that deal the same amounts of damage—but having fewer of them!). This can be translated into increased toughness compared to other humanoids.

Muay Thai: Defenses in muay Thai are categorized in six groups:


  • Blocking
  • Redirection
  • Avoidance
  • Evasion
  • Disruption
  • Anticipation

Having survived blows by reflex and positioning (martial fighting techniques sometimes involve vectoring and moving in ways that are unexpected to the untrained), you could simulate that dramatization by rolling a miss chance before taking HP away from the true, relatively small total, or else you could abstract how many different ways that creatures and classes are just difficult to hit and damage—whether due to skill, morale and determination versus wavering opponents, or even some raw vitality due to size or supernatural imbuement.

[Edit: Also, I recall that studies explain how "shock" is often a cause of impairment and even death. Would not it be reasonable to infer that the toughening up of a character mentally and physically over time including increasingly knowing what to do and think in dangerous situations when wounded--represented by leveling--helps them withstand greater punishment as manifested by increased hit points versus the-same-defined-range-of-damage attacks and hazards?]

This "abstraction" due to fuzzily-defined vitality or avoidance of real damage at the last moment means, of course--like a layer within a layer in Inception--that this is one more heavily abstracted layer of survivability apart from the less abstracted "defense rating" due to: attributes, natural or worn armor, feats, skills, abilities and effects (Ex, Sp, Su), and so on. This is, if you will, a last catch-all category to cover that which has not been--nor necessarily needs to be--explicitly defined.

A trained melee fighter knows over time how he or she reacts to and withstands falls, cuts, blows, poison, fire, etc. from large, bizarre, supernatural and other inimical creatures confronted. That results in confidence plus effective caution and tactics which further result in lasting longer against more punishment whereas the inexperienced drop immediately under the same onslaught.

The same damage dealt by an orc sword-thrust, an ogre club bashing, a drow fireball, or a dragon's acid breath represents different threat levels to characters of different experience levels, but you do not need to adjust those rolls up or down (except for crits, vulnerability, etc.), rather you just subtract from a larger pool and narrate (or not) how you survived!

Post Scriptum: The players in my campaigns may or may not calculate the raw number odds for different creature or other threats, but they never assume that they have a deterministic result because there are so many situational and other variables that I DO utilize, that there is always a sense of danger/challenge only deliciously mitigated by successful intel-gathering (incl. knowledge checks) while adventuring.

Also on the Web:

 
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Falling Icicle

Adventurer
Ah, the ever-debatable verisimilitude of falling (and surviving) in D&D:

On 26 January 1972, an explosion on JAT Flight 367, while over Srbská Kamenice in Czechoslovakia caused the plane to break apart. Vulović, 22 years old at the time, was a flight attendant on board...Vulović fell approximately 10,160 metres (33,330 ft). She suffered a fractured skull, three broken vertebrae (one crushed completely) that left her temporarily paralyzed from the waist down, and two broken legs. She was in a coma for 27 days...The man who found me, says I was very lucky...Vulović continued working for JAT at a desk job following a full recovery from her injuries. She regained the use of her legs after surgery and continued to fly sporadically...Vulović was awarded the Guinness Record title by Paul McCartney at a ceremony in 1985. (Wikipedia: Vesna Vulović)

Also, regarding hit points as an abstraction for surviving injuries, I years ago met a friend of a friend who had suffered almost 50 deep stab wounds while initially sleeping--inflicted with a kitchen knife by a deranged lover. He took his shirt off to show a bunch of people and there were numerous, inch-long, wide-ish scars all over his chest, abdomen and back. He said he was rushed to the hospital and almost died, but he did, in fact, survive.

Consequently: I remain untroubled by game narratives and mechanics that imply some amazing/heroic/unbelievable-in-the-real-world experiences can happen.

While it's true that there are examples of people surviving falling from terminal heights or being stabbed dozens of times, those occurrences are extremely rare, so rare that they make being struck by lightning seem commonplace. The truth is, your odds of surviving such things are so miniscule that nobody in their right mind would ever expect to survive. In D&D, on the other hand, surviving a fall from a terminal height or dozens of stab wounds as a high level character isn't just an extremely remote possibility, it's often guaranteed. The maximum falling damage was, I believe, 10d6. That's an absolute maximum of 60 points of damage. Characters can easily survive that, with 0% risk of fatality by mid levels. At higher levels, it's a mere inconvenience.
 

Sadras

Legend
And now we can apply modules in the game for capping HP, introducing wounds, FATE, Miss Points, Morale, Vitality...whatever you like. Problem solved.

Like they used to say in the old adventure modules "make it your own"

How much time & energy do we have to waste again and again on the whole HP dilemma? Grief.
 

Sadras

Legend
That's not heroic. That's dumb luck. Marvel at the prowess of the great wizard who, though completely inept at combat, stood in front of the enemies and hoped that the DM miraculously rolled poorly enough for him to survive.

Wow, that seems a little man-spirited.

That scenario conjures images of a frail elf in robes walking up to a line of goblins and closing his eyes and holding a staff out in front of him while the goblins tripped over their own feet repeatedly just as they were about to swing.

Perhaps the wizard held the line to provide time for: (a) innocents to escape (b) the cleric to heal a fallen comrade; etc

I'd prefer heroes like Gandalf in the Lord of the Rings movies who kills a number of Orcs in a couple of seconds with his sword than the above scenario.

Lord of the Rings also included 4 untrained-in-combat hobbits who found themselves having to fight. They are not slammed for be non heroic or hoping the "DM" miraculously rolled
poorly enough for them to survive.

There's a reason that everyone in the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings eventually learns to fight. They wouldn't be decent adventurers if they didn't.

The wizard does learn to fight, just slower than the fighter.
 

Blackbrrd

First Post
While it's true that there are examples of people surviving falling from terminal heights or being stabbed dozens of times, those occurrences are extremely rare, so rare that they make being struck by lightning seem commonplace. The truth is, your odds of surviving such things are so miniscule that nobody in their right mind would ever expect to survive. In D&D, on the other hand, surviving a fall from a terminal height or dozens of stab wounds as a high level character isn't just an extremely remote possibility, it's often guaranteed. The maximum falling damage was, I believe, 10d6. That's an absolute maximum of 60 points of damage. Characters can easily survive that, with 0% risk of fatality by mid levels. At higher levels, it's a mere inconvenience.

Depending on edition, you have the 50hp of damage in one hit makes you do a system shock check to see if you survive (from AD&D?).
 

Bluenose

Adventurer
There's a reason that everyone in the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings eventually learns to fight. They wouldn't be decent adventurers if they didn't.

Everyone in D&D who gets to high level becomes a decent warrior too. A 10th level Wizard is going to win a bar-room brawl with a 1st level Fighter nearly all the time. For that matter, so are the 10th level Commoner and Expert from 3e. Because obviously the professional warrior isn't going to be a match for a character who might be assumed not to be much of a warrior at all.

While it's true that there are examples of people surviving falling from terminal heights or being stabbed dozens of times, those occurrences are extremely rare, so rare that they make being struck by lightning seem commonplace. The truth is, your odds of surviving such things are so miniscule that nobody in their right mind would ever expect to survive. In D&D, on the other hand, surviving a fall from a terminal height or dozens of stab wounds as a high level character isn't just an extremely remote possibility, it's often guaranteed. The maximum falling damage was, I believe, 10d6. That's an absolute maximum of 60 points of damage. Characters can easily survive that, with 0% risk of fatality by mid levels. At higher levels, it's a mere inconvenience.

When the freak event is as normal as it gets to be for D&D characters, it doesn't exactly help verisimilitude. I always assume that there's a sheep there to break their fall. Not that the hit point argument hasn't been had before, or that rationality is a large part of it.
 

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