D&D 5E L&L: new playtest packet 10/15, Druid update

[Klaus]

How do you figure out the attack bonus?



This is the last public playtest's rules for turning into a steed. To me, this is vastly superior. It is in fact very similar to Pathfinder's system, except there's no actual stat bonus. Which is more of a feature than a bug, IMO.

(That packet didn't give druids a proficiency bonus based on level, but the rules change so fast I might have missed a universal bonus. Somewhere.)

IMO, a higher-level druid, turning into the same form, should have an advantage. Based on it's (expected, anyway) higher proficiency bonus, if nothing else.

I suspect this is still how it works. After all, Mike mentioned the forms being "proficient" with their attacks, and proficiency is based on your level. Since Strength will be fixed by the form's score, it'll probably read as:

Bite: Profiency bonus + 4 melee, 1d6 + 4 piercing damage (for instance).

 

[steeldragons]

I truly thought they would go "simple/easy/streamlined" by simply saying a Druid can only shapeshift into an animal of lesser HD than they have levels....thus ensuring that higher level druids could do bigger/badder animals and/or giant versions of critters that would be more useful for combat.

But, I guess, making it "small/simple critters" for all druids and more ferocious/combat critters for Circle of the Moon works too.

I like the temp hp mechanic. Makes sense and, again, simple. Only problem I see would be for stuff like spying as field mice or songbirds. What good is a temp hp "cloak" of 2hp really gonna offer?

 

[DEFCON 1]

Only problem I see would be for stuff like spying as field mice or songbirds. What good is a temp hp "cloak" of 2hp really gonna offer?

It'll offer nothing. But it certainly tells the player that those forms are certainly not to be used except in cases where they can spy with little chance to be seen and attacked. As non-combat abilities, there's no better way to indicate it. "You want to spy as a songbird with all those special abilities, go ahead... but you're at a great risk if you get caught."

 

[Plaguescarred]

I like how simpler and more versatile Wild Shape is becoming, but i am concerned with HP and duration.


Also, if its the last update, does it mean we won't have an update for the Paladin ?

 

[am181d]

I like how simpler and more versatile Wild Shape is becoming, but i am concerned with HP and duration.


Also, if its the last update, does it mean we won't have an update for the Paladin ?

That was certainly my reading, yes. Unless they sneak it into tomorrow's packet, I don't think we're getting it.

 

[the Jester]

How do you figure out the attack bonus?

It sounds to me like it'll be the number written right there in the book in front of you.

I don't think there will be any figuring at all.

 

[the Jester]

How do you figure out the attack bonus?

It sounds to me like it'll be the number written right there in the book in front of you.

I don't think there will be any figuring at all.

 

[KidSnide]

We'll have to look at it, obviously. But from what I hear, this system looks very interesting:

1) When it comes to dynamically calculating a druid's animal form combat stats, I think zero calculations is a really nice number. Sure, you can calculate out your combat forms ahead of time, but if there are a half-dozen or more forms, who wants to bother?

2) I like the fiction of a druid adopting a form until they are "knocked out of it" by damage. It saves the silliness of a mouse or songbird with 68 hit points. Instead, a druid in a vulnerable form isn't in danger of being killed, but is in danger of being knocked back into the druid's original form. That's a terrific set-up for infiltration scenes.

3) I like the balance of effectively providing the animal's hp as temporary hit points. A combat form can be substantially less powerful than the party fighter (as it should be!), and yet still be a useful way to spend a few rounds because it gets to soak up damage "for free" in addition to dishing some out. In a way, it's a lot like summoning an animal and using your actions to make the animal fight, but without the lameness of figuring out why your druid has to concentrate so much to make the bear attack.

In any case, it's a great idea to playtest.

-KS

 

[MerricB]

And the same attack bonus too? Do I need to recalc that?

I'm also concerned that animals apparently have to be built with druids in mind. (Or worse, not! In which case someone will find a broken combo somewhere.)

You can't turn into ANY animal you like. You can only turn into animals that are on the approved list. It's not like the old 3E version of "any animal that is small or tiny" or variants thereof.

Considering how close D&DN's rules are to Pathfinder's rules, I don't see why something like Pathfinder's wildshape ruleset.

Because they're not particularly good rules. In PF, a 6th level druid with Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10 can turn into a grizzly bear.

Grizzly Bear: AC 16, HP 42, Atk +7/+7 melee (1d6+5 plus grab), bite +7 (1d6+5). Str 21, Dex 13, Con 19
Druid Bear: AC 12*, HP 30, Atk +5/+5 melee (1d6+2 plus grab), bite +0 (1d6+2). Str 14, Dex 8, Con 10 (may be boosted by magic rings, etc, but magic armour/shields are useless).

Hmm. Not particularly frightening.

In Next, you just use the Grizzly Bear stats without any calculation needed. (There's a lot of calculation needed for PF). The designers can select animals that are balanced for the various levels without having to guess at power levels and make sure later monster designs also work with the feature (the main problem with 3E polymorph is a lot of monsters had low HD and incredible stats... PF fixed that at the cost of making wildshape a rather poor power into normal animals).

Cheers!

 

[Li Shenron]

They have been trying to "fix" the Druid since 1976.

I think its time to admit the class is fubar, and drop it for good.

Or admit that "fixing" things is fubar, and drop it for good.

Simplify and streamline? I would have to recalculate most of my stats when I transform. My ability scores change, my AC changes, my magic items vanish...

The only issue is that attack bonuses in the monster manual include proficiency (whatever it is for monsters) and ability score.

Thus, if you use the animal's stats but the druid's proficiency, you have to recalculate the attack bonus. It's just one addition, not much recalculation... It might get tricky if animals start having more "embedded" bonuses to attacks that are neither ability score modifiers nor proficiency bonuses.

Fact is, with "one proficiency bonus to rule them all", it is not necessary anymore to pre-calculate a lot of stuff such as saving throws, skill total modifiers... you can if you want, but it's pretty easy to just add ability mod + proficiency on the fly. So when wildshaped you can just do the same, although at least precalculating attacks is probably still better.

I'm also concerned that animals apparently have to be built with druids in mind. (Or worse, not! In which case someone will find a broken combo somewhere.)

I really hope not, but anyway they mentioned that wildshape uses fixed small lists of animals to avoid abuses. So rather than re-designing animals, they will just make sure not to include broken ones to the lists.