L&L Turning & Churning

[Li Shenron]

I like most of the ideas in the article.

I synced with this part especially:

We can create effects that are useful but that don't give an automatic victory to the cleric. In most cases, turning is a good tool for evading or escaping the undead.

For some reason, that's what Turn Undead always made me think of: a party surrounded with too many undead to fight, but the cleric uses Turn Undead to ward them off, and everybody manages to retreat to safety or dodge them.

Reducing Turn Undead to damage is really appalling for me. But also allowing everyone to just freely bash the undead while under the Turn effect is kind of lame.

I guess it sounds too much for many, but if Turn Undead had no limit on the number of undead affected (but maintain a limit on range and definitely a level-based limit on which undead can be affected) or at least a very generous high limit, it would allow more for this type of scenario where having a cleric really makes a difference to defend yourself against undead but still forces the party to come up with other ideas for proceeding if e.g. they need to get past the undead, and you still have to fight if your target is to destroy them.

 

[FireLance]

One weird thing about the turn attempt as Mearls presents it is that he makes it a cone...to me, the idea of an area around the cleric makes a lot more sense than a blast out from the cleric. Though maybe it is a cone by default in BEMCI?

I think the cone probably grew out of the idea that a cleric had to see the undead that he was turning (in much the same way that 3e detect magic was a cone to to represent the spellcaster's ability to "see" magical auras). Effectively, the cleric had to somehow focus on the undead creatures he intended to affect; it's not an indiscriminate unleashing of divine energy.

 

[erleni]

I'd like to have two versions of Turn Undead. A burst that you can maintain and can ward offf only mindless undead and a blast that can affect any kind of undead.
In this way you can preserve the two iconic cases of the cleric being a safe heaven in an horde of mindless undeads as well that of the exorcist fighting a single powerful vampire.

 

[Khaalis]

Turning Undead is a classic part of D&D, so it must exist in some form. However, there are a number of ways it could do so. Thus the most dominant question that comes to the fore for the designers will be:

* Do all clerics have the ability to Turn Undead (regardless of their patron deity)?

The answer will likely be Yes, for the Core Cleric. From what we have seen so far, it looks like the cleric will remain being the classic D&D cleric it has always been, which will include the ability to turn undead.

Considering the literary and film sources of turning undead, this makes sense, since in most sources, ANY holy object presented by someone with Faith will effect undead, whether it be a Cross, a Star of David, a Bible, a Shaman's Totem necklace, a Holy Relic, etc. In these sources is found the source for the "Cone" area of effect as well. The presenter of the holy item must present the holy object in the general direction of the undead to be effected. What people seem to want for a radius area of effect would fall more into a spell or ritual effect of Consecration.

As to the topic of different deities caring differently about undead, I don't personally think this should matter for clerics by deity choice, but only by alignment. Clerics are basically holy warriors of the church, and no "good" deity likes undead. So it should be fine for all good clerics to Turn Undead.

However, WotC has also mentioned the existence of a Priest class, which many feel will be more of a 2E style Specialty Priest. If so, then this is the class that should NOT get Turn Undead as a default ability, as the class's abilities should be based more upon the deity's spheres of control.

As to the mechanic Mike mentions in the article, I think it is a good mechanical solution to Turn Undead. It is clean, simple and allows for a lot of variation and customization.
* For the Player: Roll a CHA ability check, with a bonus applied by Cleric level vs. a DC.
* For the DM: Check the player's result vs. the DC in the monster stat block, apply the result.

To this you could add all sorts of flavorful and numeric alterations. For instance:
* A cleric of a Death deity may gain a +4 bonus to all Turn Undead attempts.
* A Vampire may list something like "If the cleric that succeeds a Turn Attempt against the vampire is of a deity with the Sun domain, the Vampire also suffers 1d6 fire damage per X levels of the cleric."
* There could be feats that allow the cleric to specialize in Turning, increasing their turning range, bonuses to their turning roll, special effects when they turn, etc.

Overall, I think Mike might be onto a decent idea for the Turning mechanic.

 

[Hassassin]

I like the proposed idea. It doesn't use a new mechanic like channel attempts, just a basic charisma check, and allows for flavorful results. The only potential problem is if the results are too uncertain to make it worth attempting a turn against a "new" type of undead.

The special 1/2 level + charisma check isn't a good idea, though. Either use a normal charisma check, a normal spell-like attack roll or make it a skill specific to clerics.

It also shouldn't have a specific daily limit - either balance it to be at-will or make it work like other spontaneous magic by using your prepared spell slots.

 

[Minigiant]

I like Mearls' idea, sorta. But it doesn't account for turning elementals and plants and such.

I'd have it like this.

Make Turn Attempt:

• Mindless: The monster cowers and runs away from cleric. Effect ends if attacked.
  • Win by 10 or more: The monster is destroyed
  • Monster is Incorporeal or lacks a true body: The monster is Banished for 1 year.
• Animistic Mind (Int 2-): The monster stays 20' away from the cleric and all allies. It loses all actions. Effect ends if attacked.
  • Win by 10 or more: The monster is treated as Mindless.
  • Monster is Incorporeal or lacks a true body: The monster is Banished for 1 hour
• Stupid Mind (Int 3-10): The monster stays 20' away from the cleric and all allies. It can act. Effect ends if attacked.
  • Win by 10 or more: The monster is treated as Animalistic.
  • Monster is Incorporeal or lacks a true body:The monster is Banished for 5 minutes
• Smart Mind (Int 3-10): The monster stays 20' away from the cleric and all allies as long as the cleric spends a full round keeping holy symbol up. It can act. Effect ends if attacked or it cleric is interrupted.
  • Win by 10 or more: The monster is treated as Stupid.
  • Monster is Incorporeal or lacks a true body:The monster is Banished for 1d4 rounds

Cleric of Good scares ghouls, banishes ghosts, and struggles with vampires.
Cleric of Fire scares magma beasts, banishes fire elemental, and struggles with fire giants.

 

[triqui]

I think clerics should not have turn undead as a standard option. A cleric of the God of Fire has no interest in turning undead. Or a cleric of the god of Trade, or Luck, or the god of Wine and Parties, or the god of Seas.

Make turn undead a skill for clerics from Good Domain, and/or Paladins.

 

[Hassassin]

I think clerics should not have turn undead as a standard option. A cleric of the God of Fire has no interest in turning undead. Or a cleric of the god of Trade, or Luck, or the god of Wine and Parties, or the god of Seas.

Make turn undead a skill for clerics from Good Domain, and/or Paladins.

IMO it's the other way around: the undead don't care about which god you worship - any kind of faith allows you to turn them. That's the way it works in most fantasy literature where usually a priest and e.g. a wiccan can both use their faith and holy symbols against something like vampires.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

My thoughts:

1) Not all Clerics should turn undead. I prefer it to be a channeling power specific to deities that care about undead.

2) I prefer an aura to a cone, it's easier to work with.

3) I don't have a problem with it dealing damage to undead, but nuking them outright is too powerful. I would like the immediate effect to be a repulsion or penalty on affected creatures, followed by damage that increases the longer the cleric concentrates (hell, more spells that require concentration period).

4) A specific turning effect and DC for each undead creature is a waste of time and space. Base it on their level/HD/whatever. Give tough things turn resistance to increase their effective level. Clerics should find it easier to turn weak creatures, hard to turn powerful ones.

5) Finally, I liked that in 3rd edition you could turn other creatures. Lycanthropes, elementals and demons should all be vulnerable to the right kind of cleric.

 

[NMcCoy]

With the discussion of morale earlier, I see an opportunity here for something like this:

Turn Undead:
As a standard action, a Cleric wielding a holy symbol can make a single Charisma check against the Morale rating of each undead creature in Close range, with success affecting the creature as described in that creature's tactics section.
​

It's pretty easy to see how this sort of thing can be generalized for other cool applications and modified by effects - a nearby necromancer could provide a bonus to his minions' Morale, a mage might buy a feat or feature to do similar things to elementals, a fighter might be able to make a check against the Morale of an adjacent foe when he kills someone with a crit, monsters could lose (or gain!) Morale upon taking heavy damage, etc. And since the effects of taking a hit to Morale could vary by critter, you still have lots of dynamics and discovery to work with - an animal might flee, a zombie might refuse to approach, a poltergeist might dissipate entirely.