L&L Turning & Churning

[Kingreaper]

The problem with it as written is the amount of statblock space it takes up for 1 class, that probably isn't even in your party.

Oh, and the fact there's no way to allow you to turn things other than undead.

 

[Scribble]

One weird thing about the turn attempt as Mearls presents it is that he makes it a cone...to me, the idea of an area around the cleric makes a lot more sense than a blast out from the cleric. Though maybe it is a cone by default in BEMCI?

I'd argue that it's very iconic that way. Think about many of the horror movies where the person "turning" undead does it. They're almost always pointing the cross directly at the vampire or monster and pushing it backwards with holy might. "Back! Baaaack beast of Satan!"

I COULD see like an improved type turn that eventually turns into a close burst type thing though.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

I like the general idea, but find the boundary between monster and cleric drawn slightly off the ideal spot.

There is nothing wrong with having specific "vulnerabilities" on many kinds of monsters. For undead, that will often be "afraid of holy power" or "leery of radiant damage" or however it is most convenient to write it. If that has skeletons then fleeing from radiant power wielded in some charismatic manner, then a cleric "turn undead" power would certainly qualify. You might get similar results out of paladins brandishing a blessed sword.

OTOH, I don't think such results should be automatic with any use of any power that has the "radiant" or "holy" keywords. So having the Cha check required and using a standard action to branish the radiant power is not bad. That setup makes "turn undead" specifically an extra thing that some clerics can easily do to so brandish--though at that point, I'd name the power something else, to reinforce that it is a brandishing of power that can be used for other purposes.

A high Cha wizard, bard, etc. with a radiant, sustainable power can try the same thing--albeit perhaps not with whatever advantage a cleric might get for something geared towards undead specifically. In fact, the "turn undead" power might be merely a feat that gives some hefty bonus to such brandished holy power.

With that framework, you can do similar things for elementals, lycanthropes, etc. Find a way to brandish silver, you can intimidate lycanthropes. How they react is specific to the creature, same as any other vulnerability.

 

[Astrosicebear]

I like Mearls' approach, but I think its too broad and makes designing undead monsters a bit more difficult, or cookie cutter.

I'd like to see Turn Undead be a class mechanic that works as Mearls' described but with set 'abilities' ala the 3.5e rogue's high level choices. For example:

Turn Undead: A Cleric gains the ability to channel the power of the divine through a holy symbol to keep undead creatures at bay, turn them to dust, or grant allies bonuses. Choose one of the following at first level. You gain another choice at levels 6,12 and 18.

All turning checks are Cha checks + 1/2 your cleric level. And affect a 30' cone in front of the cleric. You do not need to be able to see undead for them to be affected.

Cower: You force undead to cower before you, unable to act unless attacked. This effect lasts as long as you brandish your holy symbol plus 2 rounds.

Flee: You force undead to flee away from you.

Smite: You channel the power of divine to damage undead. You deal 1d6 damage/2 cleric levels to affected undead. Undead that succeed on the save and have less hit dice than you take half damage.

Bless: Instead of harming undead, your divine influence grants allies bonuses. All allies within a 30' burst of you gain your cleric level in temporary hit points, and a +2 bonus to attack, damage, and saves.

Bane: You channel the divine power to hinder the undead. All undead in a 30' burst take a -2 penalty to attack, damage, and saves. This penalty increases to -3 at 10th level, and -4 at 15th.

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Just some examples, but let the cleric choose. Also opens a whole slew of feat options.

 

[dkyle]

What I dislike most about Mike's specific suggestion is the power of the effects he outlines. The Skeleton, Zombie and Ghost ones are basically equivalent to Save or Die, in terms of encounter balance. Unless they have the HP limits as discussed last week (and was quite popular, according to the poll), I think they're excessive. But with HP limits, they lose a lot of the genre appeal of Turning, which is almost always done against undead who are at full "health". It also feels like putting in a lot of effort, to set individual turn DCs and checks, all for one ability from one class. It suggests an expectation that all Divines would end up with Turn Undead, so that work doesn't go to waste, but I don't really even like that all Clerics have Turn Undead, let alone all Divine classes.

I also dislike the "Daily resource" aspect of pre-4E turning. I dislike Daily resources in general, but I also think it's not very genre appropriate. When do you see undead ignoring a holy symbol simply because the wielder used it too many times against other undead that day?

I say make Turn Undead an at-will ability. Whenever the Cleric is wielding their Holy Symbol (so in place of a weapon or shield, minor action to pull out), any Undead that attacks the Cleric, or an adjacent ally, are at a -2 to the attack, and take 1d8 + CHA + Cleric's level in Radiant (or Positive Energy) damage. I generally like these sorts of "soft control" abilities, where instead of a literal compulsion, there's a disincentive to do something. It creates more moments of interesting decision-making in combat.

Then, put the more powerful nuking/controlling anti-Undead abilities into the Spell system.

 

[gyor]

I liked his preposal, including the vrock one at the end.

As for only life and light deities offering turn undead, I disagree. All clerics can turn undead because its not tied to the gods domains or portoflios, its tied to the spiritual essence that makes up the Gods bodies which is more universal. The difference between holy and unholy energy is frequency and purity, its all spirit.

See the way I see it a God is different then a mortal. A mortal's spirit is its animating force, tied to its soul. In a God its still the animating force, but it is much more powerful then that, its also the Gods flesh, its "biology" and basic divinity. Healing and Turning Undead and cleric spells draw from this part of a God

Where as a Gods' Dominions/portofilios are a God's jobs only tied so much more to a God then mortal's job could be, that they combine to form the God's soul. Its why Gods can never be permantly destroyed as long as thier domains still exsist its allows possible to bring them back.

See that's why I see Cleric's being more generic then Priests. Clerics draw on the body and will of a God, but at the end of the day flesh is just flesh no matter where it comes from, although some may be healthy and some diseased.

A Priest on the other hand draws straight from a Gods soul, more intimate, and more diverse and unique although they might need to draw some spiritual essence with it to allow it to physically manifest.

A Paladin draws power from virtues and vices which are group minds from all creatures with minds including gods so every god is apart of every vice and virtue. In essence the Paladin draws power from a pacticular facet of a gods via the virtue/vice, which colours the Paladin's enactions with that God. Think the First Evil from Buffy and how it could take the form of the Hell God Glory, because all evil that is done including that of Gods is apart of it.

That's just how I picture it. My essay on D&D theology .

 

[TerraDave]

Sigh.

This is the problem with a new edition.

I liked Mearl's goals, but the proposal is pretty fiddly and involved for something that, in some games, may not come up that often.

Of course, many of the alternatives proposed here are are also fiddly and involved for something that, in some games, may not come up that often.

 

[Klaus]

I don't know. I remember all the reasonings from moving *away* from Turn Undead, all the way back to the 3e Unearthed Arcana and Expedition to Castle Raveloft (the big pro was: makes turn undead work better with the other characters in the party).

Turn Undead, much like Favored Enemy, are dependent on the DM. If the campaign is to focus on dragonslaying, Turn Undead is useless. Which is why I prefer when turning undead is one possible use of a broader ability.

 

[gweinel]

I would also loved most a broader version of "turn undead" that is tied to the portfolio of each god. For example the priest of a water god, let's say Poseidon, would be able to turn not undead but "fire" origin creatures.
Of course a mechanic like that does not work very well with the mechanic that Mearls suggesting because the effect of the turn undead is not written in the player's handbook but in the undeads stat block in monster manual....

 

[Odhanan]

I like Mearls' idea, sorta. But it doesn't account for turning elementals and plants and such.

I'd have it like this.

Make Turn Attempt:

• Mindless: The monster cowers and runs away from cleric. Effect ends if attacked.
  • Win by 10 or more: The monster is destroyed
  • Monster is Incorporeal or lacks a true body: The monster is Banished for 1 year.
• Animistic Mind (Int 2-): The monster stays 20' away from the cleric and all allies. It loses all actions. Effect ends if attacked.
  • Win by 10 or more: The monster is treated as Mindless.
  • Monster is Incorporeal or lacks a true body: The monster is Banished for 1 hour
• Stupid Mind (Int 3-10): The monster stays 20' away from the cleric and all allies. It can act. Effect ends if attacked.
  • Win by 10 or more: The monster is treated as Animalistic.
  • Monster is Incorporeal or lacks a true body:The monster is Banished for 5 minutes
• Smart Mind (Int 3-10): The monster stays 20' away from the cleric and all allies as long as the cleric spends a full round keeping holy symbol up. It can act. Effect ends if attacked or it cleric is interrupted.
  • Win by 10 or more: The monster is treated as Stupid.
  • Monster is Incorporeal or lacks a true body:The monster is Banished for 1d4 rounds

Cleric of Good scares ghouls, banishes ghosts, and struggles with vampires.
Cleric of Fire scares magma beasts, banishes fire elemental, and struggles with fire giants.

I like Mike's idea, but don't like the consequence of loading the creatures writeups with information. I like this variant I quoted here quite a bit. Consequently, why not have the INT score of the creature be itself the DC of the turning attempt or some such? The smarter the undead is, the harder it will become to turn. Huge threatening undead that would also be completely stupid could have specific exceptions to the rule from there.