L&L Turning & Churning

[Khaalis]

IMO it's the other way around: the undead don't care about which god you worship - any kind of faith allows you to turn them. That's the way it works in most fantasy literature where a priest and e.g. a wiccan can both use their faith and holy symbols against something like vampires.

Exactly.

I also feel that this is where you get into the difference between a Cleric and a Priest as well. Many people apparently want the Cleric to become a 2E Specialty Priest, which it isn't and likely won't ever be.

There needs to be a distinct definition between Cleric and Priest. From what we've seen so far, that basically boils down to:
* Cleric: Armor-bound, soldiers of faith. Pretty much identical regardless of their exact deity of worship, but room for some customization based on deity.
* Priest: Practitioners of faith that are more focused on being an exemplar of their chosen deity.

Abilities such as "Turn Fire Elemental" should exist, but only as Options. For Clerics, it may be a feat, for a Priest it may be a class option.

 

[triqui]

IMO it's the other way around: the undead don't care about which god you worship - any kind of faith allows you to turn them. That's the way it works in most fantasy literature where usually a priest and e.g. a wiccan can both use their faith and holy symbols against something like vampires.

So it's faith, and not the power of the god, who turn the undead? Would it work if I have faith in a God that does not really exist? Or if I have faith in, say, Quantum Physics?
I disagree with this view. It's the power of the God being channelled who turn the undeads. That's why in "Time of Troubles" style events it doesn't work. If you can't access your god, you can't turn undead, even if your faith has not decreased.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

So it's faith, and not the power of the god, who turn the undead? Would it work if I have faith in a God that does not really exist? Or if I have faith in, say, Quantum Physics?
I disagree with this view. It's the power of the God being channelled who turn the undeads. That's why in "Time of Troubles" style events it doesn't work. If you can't access your god, you can't turn undead, even if your faith has not decreased.

I agree. The power has to come from the god in question, else any character with faith ought to be able to turn undead.

 

[Hassassin]

So it's faith, and not the power of the god, who turn the undead? Would it work if I have faith in a God that does not really exist? Or if I have faith in, say, Quantum Physics?

I'd make it work whenever, as long as you have faith. If there's a class for worshipers of quantum physics, I suppose they could also turn, but it wouldn't be available in most settings I use.

I disagree with this view. It's the power of the God being channelled who turn the undeads. That's why in "Time of Troubles" style events it doesn't work. If you can't access your god, you can't turn undead, even if your faith has not decreased.

Spells are already for channeling the power of your deity. If turning works like that it should be a spell (spontaneous or otherwise). However, I think making it be pure faith is more flavorful and matches the literature better.

 

[Minigiant]

The power is from a deity. But positive energy is positive energy and positives energy scares undead.

Doesn't matter where the fire comes from (a torch, an alchemist, a spell, a fire god), it still burns human flesh.

 

[delericho]

Another article I mostly liked. I think I'd probably be inclined to change Turn Undead into a ritual (or series of rituals), but what Mearls describes works, too.

 

[avin]

I find the idea of different effects for different undead very nice.

As long is written on monster sheet is fine.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I'm probably the odd man out for holding this opinion, but I don't really think that Turn Undead should exist in (any of) its traditional forms.

I have no problem with the idea that a holy symbol (perhaps with a Wisdom check) can repel or at least hold a vampire at bay. I wouldn't mind seeing non-clerics able to attempt this. After all, that's a traditional vampire weakness. Nor do I take issue with holy men who are able to cast out possessing spirits. However, beyond that, I can't think of a single (non-D&D) reference to lore about undead that are vulnerable to turning. Zombies certainly don't run in fear from holy symbols in any zombie flick I've ever seen.

Personally, I'd like Turn Undead to change or go away. I've already discussed the thematic issues. In addition, past incarnations have made it too easy for the cleric to trivialize undead encounters (or for the DM to compensate for the cleric's presence, and the party to suffer when the cleric's turning fails). As such, I don't think it's too great from a mechanical standpoint either.

Regarding the name, funny story. When I first started playing D&D I was always the DM, and one of my players thought Turn Undead was the coolest ability ever. I couldn't figure it out until the party encountered a few goblins, and he tried to Turn Undead. I finally realized he thought he could turn into an undead creature! Needless to say, he was rather disappointed to discover what it actually did.

 

[gweinel]

Good point. In fact, out of the whole article, that part worried me. I was not sorry to see cones go away. I really liked the square area effects in 4e; it streamlined things incredibly. I really, really hope that doesn't go away.

Exactly... the cone thing bothered me too. I would prefer a burst - radius area of effect.

However, the whole idea that Mearls expressed looks neat...

 

[Savage Wombat]

1) As written, this is a glorified Diplomacy check. "I try to avoid the fight. " " Roll a Charisma check."

2) I'm not sure about this power in terms of the action economy. Is this more useful to the cleric than casting a spell?