Lack of Fast Heroes (rant)

[Neonchameleon]

Personally I'm more peeved that there is no martial leader class that uses charisma as a prime stat!

Apparently for charisma to make you a good leader, you need to be flinging spells.

Tell it to my Bard! Every single one of his attack powers is a weapon power. His bardic rituals are hardly flashy spell-slinging (Traveller's Chant, Glib Limerick). And even Words of Friendship and Majestic Word could easily be martial. About the only thing currently on his character sheet showing he's arcane is that he's a bard.

 

[Neonchameleon]

This is true to a point, but only to a point. Classes in 4E generally have a distinct association with their primary attributes. Sorcerers are screaming kids making an impression even on the universe (Cha), Wizards are scholarly types (Int), Rogues are quick (Dex) - but where did the clever part go?

This is precisely what I want more dexterity classes - because I feel the 4E crew has been able to capture the feel of the attributes in classes, and one feel I want more of is fast heroes. And no, to me being a fast hero doesn't have much to do with movement speed - it is all about quick reflexes and quicker wit.

I've fluffed a heroic swordmage as a fast thinking swashbuckler who survives on his wits with a little splash of magic in the past.

 

[Flipguarder]

Personally I'm more peeved that there is no martial leader class that uses charisma as a prime stat!

Apparently for charisma to make you a good leader, you need to be flinging spells.

Agreed, I think the designers felt that they didn't want all leaders to be cha classes which seems intuitively likely. Although they did not have the same issue with str defenders.

Folks - I've just booted Regicide for a month for repeated trolling. See what he was doing up-thread. Consider that an object lesson for what not to do.

Carry on with the thread, please!

3 Cheers for Piratecat!

 

[DracoSuave]

Quick reflexes are part and parcel to Dexterity, and if you want it to go above and beyond that, there are feats to reflect it; but isn't a quick wit all in the role playing?

True true...


...but Dex/Charisma and Charisma/Dex are builds for Rogues and Sorcerers respectively... both being fairly quick witted.


Mind you, I don't see charisma as 'Charming the universe' but rather, as having such a force of personality that one can bend the world to your will. Paladins don't attack with their charm, they attack with their ardent will and piety, which is so strong because of their charisma it's shiney.

 

[Nytmare]

Paladins don't attack with their charm, they attack with their ardent will and piety, which is so strong because of their charisma it's shiney.

What would be stopping you from playing that same Paladin as witty and charming?

 

[DracoSuave]

What would be stopping you from playing that same Paladin as witty and charming?

Nothing is stopping you from doing so.

But Charisma is so much more than just 'wit and charm' and also includes that personal force that can manifest itself in direct manner, which is why it is often used for Arcane and Divine magics.

When it's used to create fire out of nothing, it's no longer simple wit, and it's some other thing of which wit and charm is but a subset.

It's all up to the individual, mind you.

 

[Nytmare]

Nothing is stopping you from doing so.

My reply to Starfox was because I thought he was saying that he wanted them to make a fast character class that witty and charming.

 

[Starfox]

My reply to Starfox was because I thought he was saying that he wanted them to make a fast character class that witty and charming.

You got that right.

Personally I'm more peeved that there is no martial leader class that uses charisma as a prime stat!

And Saeviomagy got this right too!

Maybe the basic problem for me is that the classes are so shoehorned in 4E - if you want to play a Dex/Cha character, you have to find a Dex/Cha class. Trying to play another class with a Dex/Cha build is pretty much futile. It might not have been great in earlier editions either, but in my ideal game it would be viable if not optimal. Barring that, I could really see some more Dex and Dex/Cha classes, especially ones that are not strikers.

 

[Zinovia]

I think the approach you need to take is decide what you want your character to be good at. What's his modus operandi? Does he shoot arrows, swing swords, fling spells, or dart around here and there in the fight, popping up to help his allies when they are in a tough spot? As a fast hero type, he clearly won't be wearing heavy armor or carrying a shield. I think even a 2-handed weapon would be too much. A lightly-armored guy with high Dex isn't enough to tell us what he's good at. So what's his shtick?

If you want WotC to come up with more Dex classes, tell them what the classes need to do that can't be built with the current class offerings. I agree with what others have posted already - there's no need to fill in gaps that exist only in the mechanics. That's not enough reason for a class to exist. It needs to have a solid concept and flavor to hang the mechanics on. Movies and books are a great inspiration for what you want a character to be like, because they can communicate the feel of it to someone else.

Once you know what you want, then define the class you are looking for. I don't think it's enough to say "There aren't enough Dex based classes, and all of those are strikers". As has been mentioned, there are many classes where Dex is an important secondary stat. It's not hard to start with an 18/18 if you pick the right race. So is there some reason you want Dex to be the main to-hit stat? If so, ask your DM. Maybe they'll let you swap primary and secondary stats. For many of the dex-based variants of classes like the druid, I could see doing that, although I'd take a careful look at the impact (if any) it might have on individual powers.

 

[Zinovia]

Folks - I've just booted Regicide for a month...

Ooh, and it wasn't even my birthday!