Large size creature grappling a medium provoke AoO?

[enrious]

Hi gang,

A fellow player and I got into a disagreement over the following scenario:

A L sized creature is 10' away from a medium sized creature who lacks reach (and thus only threatens 5').

He maintains that if the L sized creature (lacking Imp. Grapple) attempts to grapple the M creature, the M creature gets an attack of opportunity because that's what the grappling flow chart indicates and that if you think about it, at some point some part of the attacker's body will get within the 5' reach of the M creature.

I maintain that the L sized creature will not provoke an AoO because 1) AoOs occur when someone initiates an action in a square that is threatened 2) The four squares occupied by the L sized creature were not threatened by the M creature (because they were 10' away and the M creature didn't have reach) 3) The L sized creature initiated the grapple in his (the L creature's) square(s), thus the M creature would not get an AoO because he did not threaten the square in which an AoO-causeable action occured.

Help?

 

[RigaMortus]

In order to grapple, you have to enter your opponent's square, and this is when the AoO is provoked. So the Large creature would provoke an AoO from entering the Medium creature's square as he attempts to grab his opponent.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Here's the thing.

Any time you perform one of the actions on the chart that provokes an AoO, you provoke an AoO. No ifs, ands, or buts.

However, in order to take advantage of a provoked AoO, you must threaten your opponent.

A character with 5' reach does not threaten an opponent at 10' range. No ifs, ands, or buts.

Therefore, the giant provokes, but the character cannot take advantage of the fact that he has provoked.

So, you're right and he's wrong.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

In order to grapple, you have to enter your opponent's square, and this is when the AoO is provoked.

That is not what provokes the AoO.

When grappling, you are not required to move into your target's square.

You have the option of doing so at the very end of your grapple attempt. You need only do so if you want to maintain your hold after the initial grapple attempt.

By that time, your opponent is grappled, and therefore threatens no squares, and therefore cannot make AoOs.

 

[enrious]

From the SRD:

Step 4: Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.)
Moving, as normal, provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents, but not from your target.
If you can’t move into your target’s space, you can’t maintain the grapple and must immediately let go of the target. To grapple again, you must begin at Step 1.

Initiating the grapple doesn't provoke, attempting to maintain it does, but not from the grapple target.

 

[Nareau]

As I understand it, you're correct by the RAW. However, I houserule it the way your player suggests.

Grappling is one of the stickiest parts of 3.5 combat. I've seen it used to absurdly good effect (PC ogres grappling plate-wearing fighters, and dropping them in a lake). In my opinion, it's often "too good".

One way I deal with this--have the big guy intentionally provoke an AoO by moving through his target's threatened space. The target will more often than not fall for it, "waste" their AoO, allowing the big guy to grapple them without fear. Of course, this tactic fails against Combat Reflexes...but that's a relatively rare feat to have.

Spider

 

[isoChron]

From the SRD:

Step 1: Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to grapple. If the attack of opportunity deals damage, the grapple attempt fails. (Certain monsters do not provoke attacks of opportunity when they attempt to grapple, nor do characters with the Improved Grapple feat.) If the attack of opportunity misses or fails to deal damage, proceed to Step 2.

Step 2: Grab. You make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If you fail to hit the target, the grapple attempt fails. If you succeed, proceed to Step 3.

Step 3: Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action. If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.

If you lose, you fail to start the grapple. You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are.

In case of a tie, the combatant with the higher grapple check modifier wins. If this is a tie, roll again to break the tie.

Step 4: Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.) Moving, as normal, provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents, but not from your target.

If you can’t move into your target’s space, you can’t maintain the grapple and must immediately let go of the target. To grapple again, you must begin at Step 1.

Moving occurs only as last part of a grapple and only to maintain the grapple. This movement provokes AoO from the non-grapplers that are threatening the square the grapple-initiating creature leaves. A completly other AoO than the one described in STEP 1.

Step 1 says you provoke an AoO because you try to touch your opponent in a reckless/dangerous/difficult way. Seems to me similar to Unarmed Strike.
Do you get an AoO if the enlarged human commoner tries to hit you with his unarmed strike from reach ? I don't think so. Same here with the grapple.

Medium creatures don't get AoO if a creature with natural reach stays out of reach of the medium sized creature.
Even the Feat Close Combat Fighting would do no good.
Win the grapple check or get a reach weapon. Large creatures are to be feared.
Just my way of seeing it.
Greetings

EDIT: Patryn explained it the short way while I was typing and typing

 

[Philip]

As I understand it, you're correct by the RAW. However, I houserule it the way your player suggests.
Spider

Patryn gives a good explanation. I house rule it too, if just to prevent every large creature from having a kind of pseudo Improved Grab ability versus smaller creatures. And, of course, to make the Close Quarter Fighting feat worthwhile.

 

[dcollins]

A L sized creature is 10' away from a medium sized creature who lacks reach (and thus only threatens 5').

Your interpretation is correct (as supported by several quotes above). You must threaten an opponent to take advantage of any potential attacks-of-opportunity.

 

[enrious]

I understand the rationale, but I think two things:

1) D&D combat is supposed to have an element of abstraction.

2) A Large or larger creature is typically going to have less of their vital bits in range than a Medium or Small creature.