larryboy

[Eltern]

A PC IMC is making a monk, and wanted to know a couple things about the feats she's getting. She's trying to be a finessey monk, utilizing weapon finesse feats and combat reflexes to go up right next to the opponents and prevent them from doing schtuff. But the questions:

Is there -any- official Improved Weapon Finesse feat anywhere? I've heard two versions, both applying dex instead of str mod to damage. One only applies if the target is subject to critical hits, and the other only applies in the same situations as sneak attacks.

She opted to take the Improved Grapple and Trip feats from the 3.5 monk advancement, and then realized that the actual opposed roles on these are soley Strength based -for the attacker-. The defender can use either dex or str, which ever is higher, for trips. Would a house ruling that trip attacks can use either strength or dex be off the wall? And would this be too crazy of a feat:

Dextrious Grapple
Prereq: Improved Grapple
Benefit: You can use your dex mod, instead of your strength mod, when making opposed grapple checks.

Thanks,
Eltern

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I'd be wary of any feat that allowed a PC to place too much emphasis on a single stat. The more you can consolidate in a single stat, the easier it is to strengthen your PC. Dex already governs ranged attacks, AC, and Reflex saves. Allowing it to be substituted for strength with regards to damage would, IMO, make it too easy to ignore strength and just put all your resources into maxing out dex.

Regarding grappling, I too noticed that discrepancy between the attacker using strength, and the defender using strength or dex. But I think that it does what it's meant to do: makes strength the offensive skill (as it is with all melee feats, without a feat,) and prevent high-dex low-strength PCs (rogue, wizard, possibly bard,) from being overly susceptible to grapples.

That said, I think that a feat allowing an attacker to substitute dex for strength in a grapple check would be all right. It'd be a kind of specialized Weapon Finesse, allowing dex substitution for a special attack.

But I wouldn't allow a feat to substitute dex for damage. Ever.

 

[The Souljourner]

What he said. Also - to simulate using dex for damage, she could take power attack (if she has the strength), and then she'd effectively be trading in dex bonus to hit for damage. *shrug*

I definitely would never let someone use dex for damage.... bad enough that she gets it for AC, reflex saves, melee to hit, and ranged to hit, not to mention having one of the most useful skill sets depend on it.

-The Souljourner

 

[Eltern]

aha

Would an Imp. Wep. Fin. Feat (Say that three times fast) that ONLY applies in the same situation as a sneak attack does? Is that too crazy?

Eltern

 

[Darkness]

The more you can consolidate in a single stat, the easier it is to strengthen your PC. Dex already governs ranged attacks, AC, and Reflex saves.

And Initiative.

 

[Mike Sullivan]

Re: aha

Would an Imp. Wep. Fin. Feat (Say that three times fast) that ONLY applies in the same situation as a sneak attack does? Is that too crazy?

So, to be clear, this is the feat you want:

Improved Weapon Finesse
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse
Benefits: If your opponent is denied her Dexterity bonus to AC (regardless of whether she actually has a Dexterity bonus), or is flanked by you, and you attack with a finesseable weapon, and your opponent is susceptible to critical hits, you may choose to not take your Strength bonus to damage, and instead add your Dexterity bonus to damage. If you have a Strength penalty to damage, it is still applied.


Well, let's examine it. If you have an 18+ Dexterity, and a 10 Strength, it means you're adding 4 damage in that situation. In exactly the same circumstances, a Rogue could sneak attack, and each die of damage is worth 3.5 damage on average -- so this feat is, if your Dex bonus is 4 points higher than your Strength bonus, better than two levels of Rogue in terms of the Rogue's sneak attack only. If your Dex bonus is 7 points higher than your Strength bonus, it's worth 4 levels of the Rogue's best (arguably) class ability.

On that basis, I'd be inclined to think that the feat is, if not intrinsically overpowered, at least abuseable.

 

[Tellerve]

Lord and others...why are you saying the other person gets their dexterity modifier in grappling? Is this just a late night oversight and you meant tripping?

As for a feat that made your dexterity add to damage, um, I dunno, I don't like it although I can't say too much as I wanted/am still thinking about a feat that will allow you to add your wisdom to your damage. Somewhere in the name of Zen strike, and basically my idea comes from the fact that they have Zen archery and also the fact that I wanted to have older monks with boatloads of chi (read high wisdom) and knowledge of the body do good damage. I know the argument, "good monks" means high level and they already have high damage from their progression. I know, I see, and while I agree, I still like my feat idea

I was thinking of Blind-Fight, maybe Close-Quarters combat, a decent wisdom and a decent BAB. The close-quarters/blind fight mainly come from me trying to wrap Wing Chun/Tai Chi into dnd. Basically using the feeling of force through push hands/sticky hand techniques to develop that "feel" that would allow the wisdom damage. Come to think of it, I should probably just leave it as a feat that similar to Weapon Finese allows you to add your wisdom to strike and leave the damage to strength and levels of monk. That would be the easiest to judge and doesn't lump it into the stickyness that is the dexterity damage question.

Getting back more to the topic. I think a feat that allowed you to add your dexterity to grappling would be kinda neat and I think alright, assuming weapon finese and perhaps improved grab were prereqs. But, maybe it would be too much *shrugs*

Tellerve

 

[Eltern]

we meant..

Grappling: Strength, and I'd like to implement a feat that allows the attacker to use dex instead.

Trip: Strength for attacker, str/dex for defender, and I'd like to just give a house rule that dex can be used by the attacker, too.

Imp. Wep. Fin.: I think that it's obvious, if you want to push very hard in one area, it's going to look like it's being abused, and it arguably would be being abused, such is the nature of characters that aren't well rounded. Even the rules we are given by WotC can be abused, but home made ones are obviously more easily broken.

However, if we look at the dex damage to sneak attack damage comparison, which is very logical, it seems that dex damage would go up once every three or so levels (from a magic item and normal ability boosts), and sneak attack damage would go up 3.5 every other level. I don't know if this is a viable way to compare the two. Of course, you would be continuing to take levels in rogue, where you would not be taking levels of Wep. Fin. So it seems to me like a feat that gives you about 1/3 of a single class ability, if looked at in that way. But I may be looking at it wrong.

Thanks,
Eltern

 

[Spatula]

Regarding grappling, I too noticed that discrepancy between the attacker using strength, and the defender using strength or dex. But I think that it does what it's meant to do: makes strength the offensive skill (as it is with all melee feats, without a feat,) and prevent high-dex low-strength PCs (rogue, wizard, possibly bard,) from being overly susceptible to grapples.

Defenders of trip attacks can use their strength or dexterity to resist. The only use dex has in grapples is for escape artist attempts, which is as it should be. You're not going to be good at wrestling someone to the ground if you're a weakling.

Originally posted by The Souljourner
What he said. Also - to simulate using dex for damage, she could take power attack (if she has the strength), and then she'd effectively be trading in dex bonus to hit for damage. *shrug*

You can't use Power Attack in conjunction with light weapons, and unarmed attacks are considered light.

 

[Tellerve]

Defenders of trip attacks can use their strength or dexterity to resist. The only use dex has in grapples is for escape artist attempts, which is as it should be. You're not going to be good at wrestling someone to the ground if you're a weakling.You can't use Power Attack in conjunction with light weapons, and unarmed attacks are considered light.

Then again, if you read Power Attack, page 98 phb 3.5, it says specifically that you CAN indeed use power attack on unarmed and natural weapon attacks.

Tellerve