Last of Us 2 discussion

[Zardnaar]

Haven't played it the first one kinda bored me.

Point if a game though is to have fun. If the ending isn't fun that's a problem ymmv.

Ending sounds fine gonna come down to execution.

 

[RangerWickett]

Godfather is not a fun movie. 2001 isn't a fun movie. They're still interesting.

 

[Zardnaar]

Godfather is not a fun movie. 2001 isn't a fun movie. They're still interesting.

Bit different than a game. You watch a movie you play a game.

Both play and game imply fun. If a games not fun I don't play it.

I'll watch a documentary or movie that's serious and not fun but different format.

 

[Flamestrike]

Haven't played it the first one kinda bored me.

Point if a game though is to have fun. If the ending isn't fun that's a problem ymmv.

Ending sounds fine gonna come down to execution.

The first game was bleak as well. It basically spends the whole game building a relationship between you (as Joel; a bitter survivor who lost his daughter 20 years earlier) and Ellie, as a surrogate daughter.

It promises hope of his redemption and hope for a cure for the zombie epidemic the whole way through and then suddenly

Spoiler

at the end it has you making a terrible choice to protect Ellie by murdering a hospital full of people and dooming the world to the zombie apocalypse by denying them a cure.

I mean it was bleak.

But they absolutely nailed that landing. The slow burn to the grim conclusion. The way they left it in the hands of the player to mull over the ethics and morality of that terrible decision. It was amazing.

The characterisation was on point too, and not just the main characters; also the supporting NPCs.

I'm serious when I say it was the best game I think I've ever played. Definately in my top 3. No other game (and indeed no other media) had had me introspective and reflective of it after absorbing it like that game. It haunted me for a long time afterwards.

I'm glad it wasn't spoiled for me before hand - I came in blind and came out the other end blown away.

It highlighted just what the medium of computer games can do. Unlike a movie where you watch it, you're actively involved in the action. You're not questioning a characters actions as they unfold in front of you on a acreen, you're questioning those actions as you control them participating in them.

It features on nearly every best games of all times lists for a reason man.

 

[Zardnaar]

The first game was bleak as well. It basically spends the whole game building a relationship between you (as Joel; a bitter survivor who lost his daughter 20 years earlier) and Ellie, as a surrogate daughter.

It promises hope of his redemption and hope for a cure for the zombie epidemic the whole way through and then suddenly

Spoiler

at the end it has you making a terrible choice to protect Ellie by murdering a hospital full of people and dooming the world to the zombie apocalypse by denying them a cure.

I mean it was bleak.

But they absolutely nailed that landing. The slow burn to the grim conclusion. The way they left it in the hands of the player to mull over the ethics and morality of that terrible decision. It was amazing.

The characterisation was on point too, and not just the main characters; also the supporting NPCs.

I'm serious when I say it was the best game I think I've ever played. Definately in my top 3. No other game (and indeed no other media) had had me introspective and reflective of it after absorbing it like that game. It haunted me for a long time afterwards.

I'm glad it wasn't spoiled for me before hand - I came in blind and came out the other end blown away.

It highlighted just what the medium of computer games can do. Unlike a movie where you watch it, you're actively involved in the action. You're not questioning a characters actions as they unfold in front of you on a acreen, you're questioning those actions as you control them participating in them.

It features on nearly every best games of all times lists for a reason man.

I own it but the poor PS4 gathers a lot of dust. We use the Xbox to watch everything and rarely console game now.

 

[Flamestrike]

I own it but the poor PS4 gathers a lot of dust. We use the Xbox to watch everything and rarely console game now.

Even though you likely know the ending (which makes the game) it's still worth a play through to see how the devs worked the character arcs, had you along for the ride in the relationship, got you invested and then had you make a terrible choice based on that investment.

Going in blind, I was shaking as the credits rolled. Very few works of art have had me thinking about them afterwards as much as that game. I get that you have no 'choice' in the outcome, but you dont have any in a book or film or painting either. Playing it gives a unique perspective to feel what Joel 'feels' a lot more personally, and to invest more in his eventual terrible decision.

I honestly feel that giving the player a choice (instead of railroading the player) would have lessened the impact. It wasnt so much about your choice; it was about you living someone else making that choice.

It just worked on so many levels.

I see what they went for for in the squeal, and while it mostly worked on me, I did find it heavy handed at times. It was uncomfortable, and intentionally so, and that isnt necessarily a bad thing (it can in fact be a good thing). There were controversial decisions for sure (turning the protagonist into the antagonist and vice versa) but they largely worked for me.

I compare it to the disconnect with other games (like Uncharted) where you play a likeable roguish charming goofy adventurer... who racks up a kill count of literally hundreds of people by the end of the series, who you mercilessly slay with no remorse or second thoughts from literally the opening scene of the 1st game.

Video games have struggled with mass murder, heroes seeking revenge on BBEG's for some slight, dehumanising the 'bad guys' and ultra violence for so long (even with protagonists, and in genres where it doesn't fit), and this game is itself a critique of those tropes, as well as shining a light on how we see and choose to empathise with those we hate.

I really liked it. Not as much as the original, but I really dont get the hate.

 

[Zardnaar]

Even though you likely know the ending (which makes the game) it's still worth a play through to see how the devs worked the character arcs, had you along for the ride in the relationship, got you invested and then had you make a terrible choice based on that investment.

Going in blind, I was shaking as the credits rolled. Very few works of art have had me thinking about them afterwards as much as that game. I get that you have no 'choice' in the outcome, but you dont have any in a book or film or painting either. Playing it gives a unique perspective to feel what Joel 'feels' a lot more personally, and to invest more in his eventual terrible decision.

I honestly feel that giving the player a choice (instead of railroading the player) would have lessened the impact. It wasnt so much about your choice; it was about you living someone else making that choice.

It just worked on so many levels.

I see what they went for for in the squeal, and while it mostly worked on me, I did find it heavy handed at times. It was uncomfortable, and intentionally so, and that isnt necessarily a bad thing (it can in fact be a good thing). There were controversial decisions for sure (turning the protagonist into the antagonist and vice versa) but they largely worked for me.

I compare it to the disconnect with other games (like Uncharted) where you play a likeable roguish charming goofy adventurer... who racks up a kill count of literally hundreds of people by the end of the series, who you mercilessly slay with no remorse or second thoughts from literally the opening scene of the 1st game.

Video games have struggled with mass murder, heroes seeking revenge on BBEG's for some slight, dehumanising the 'bad guys' and ultra violence for so long (even with protagonists, and in genres where it doesn't fit), and this game is itself a critique of those tropes, as well as shining a light on how we see and choose to empathise with those we hate.

I really liked it. Not as much as the original, but I really dont get the hate.

You won't like games I play. Stellaris for example is sandbox strategy game. You can play space hippies, fascist, Communists, genocidal dalek types or eat the Galaxy with a tyrand type give mind.

I liked uncharted but didn't complete the 3rd and 4th one. Maybe 3D action/adventure games aren't my thing.

I did enjoy the new Tomb Raiders, never got into to old ones.

Between Steam and the Xbox/PS4 hard drives I have a heap of games I should get around to playing.

 

[MoonSong]

@Flamestrike I'm not really invested into the game, so I don't have an opinion myself, but I can tell the following things as an observer that add up to the observed backlash (rather than hate? hate is such a strong word...).

Naughty Dog wasn't in the public's best graces.- News of developers abusing crunch time have been pilling up for at least a year, and in the last couple of months Naughty Dog became infamous for being particularly awful to their staff. This took away a lot of good-will that they would otherwise have.

Fans were blind to Joel's defects.- Regardless of the character being objectively an awful and selfish human being, a substantial portion of the fan base was heavily invested in Joel as a character. They wanted a continuation of his story, not another character's. So there was a misalignment of the expectations of this group of fans and the goals of the developers.

Sony acted like a greedy cartoon villain.- There was a leak in the leading weeks to the launch was very damning to the situation. The content of the leak didn't sit well with some fans and many decided to cancel their preorders. Sony refused these cancellations, and they went after a lot of people reporting on the leaks and this triggered the Streisand effect. And the way they went about it -by firing fraudulent DMCA takedowns- soured the launch.

And then they had to launch it on Father's Day Weekend.- You know, we are talking about a -misguidedly or otherwise- beloved father figure in fiction that is unceremoniously murdered in front of his child. This is extremely shocking and distressing on a good day. It gets way worse in Father's Day. I know not everybody had a good father, but if you got even a half decent dad, you love him, and find this timing in poor taste. (Also I think a good deal of this game's players are fathers themselves so they feel directly insulted by this)

This is about the worst of the times to launch this one game.- Unlike 2014, right now we are in the middle of very bleak times. Maybe the gaming community deserves the message of the game, but it is the last thing it needs right now. It is in times of crisis, chaos and epidemic when people turn to fiction and entertainment for comfort, and reassurance. People want feel-good games and this game is very very much the opposite of a feel-good game. I haven't played it -nor plan to, I don't own a PS4-, but I have seen some playthroughs and this thing is very very disturbing and very graphical and brutal with the death animations.

The game lacks catharsis factor.- I've seen players hating going through the game, getting angry over Joel's death and then being forced to play as his killer. They only made it to the end with the hope of seeing retribution as a way to let go of that built up anger. Then they are denied the chance of retribution, and without an outlet to discharge that anger and frustration, they turned it towards the game itself.

So this all combines into pretty intense backlash.

 

[RangerWickett]

There are two sets of reviews. Sites that let anyone post reviews have tons of 0s. But on sites that only let you review once you've bought the game, the ratings are pretty high.

It's an excellent game, and yes, it's bleak, but I think the story as a whole is positive.

 

[Gladius Legis]

There are two sets of reviews. Sites that let anyone post reviews have tons of 0s. But on sites that only let you review once you've bought the game, the ratings are pretty high.

This is a flawed way of looking at it. Those sites you mentioned in the latter category only allow reviews from people who bought the game from that particular site. It's an incredibly self-selecting sample and not at all an accurate measure of a consensus opinion. And even those sites don't require that you finish the game to review it, just bought it.