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Unearthed Arcana Latest Unearthed Arcana Introduces Rogue & Ranger Archetypes

New UA (1/16/2017): Ranger and Rogue The new UA is up, you can see it here:http://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/2017_01_UA_RangerRogue_0117JCMM.pdf


DaviMMS

First Post
My observation is that the ability is not likely to be transformative for PCs. Anything that could kill you before can probably still kill you in the same way that it was already. Things that couldn't kill you, now are even worse at killing you.

Maybe there are synergies I'm overlooking though. E.g. if you had a swarm of rats that had been turned into rhinos by Animals Shapes, the Guardian shape would be nice for keeping your rhino army intact--or at least the ones within 30' of you.

I expect them to tone it down just because at-will group healing is so un-idiomatic for 5E, but even if they didn't, I don't see why it wouldn't be fine in play. Lore Bards can already heal thousands of HP per day by 15th level; a ranger who can restore you up to half HP (thus leaving you still in danger of insta-kills and death by swarms/disintegration/etc.) doesn't change the universe of monsters that a party of four PCs can kill successfully.

If you can think of any really powerful combos, better than anything which already exists, I might change my mind. But aside from Animal Shapes/minionmancy, I can't think of any. And minionmancy/Animal Shapes is already covered pretty adequately by Animal Shapes' free HP anyway, and by Inspiring Leader.

Healing will break anything?

No.

It will make a lot of combats easier?

Yes.

It saves a lot of resources to the party by healing everyone to half HP with no cost.

And how often do you face insta-death effects?

Some of the most dangerous combats will evolve this, but over 99% of combats will involve someone dealing damage to you or your friends, so the aura is always useful. And I think it’s safe to assume that over 80% of combat situations ONLY involve damage as direct threats to the PCs life. How many monsters have petrification, disintegration, etc?

And the aura has a pretty big area too. Although you’re not moving while on tree form 30 feet aura guarantees you be targeting all your melee allies in almost all situations, and your ranged ones in some of them.

In a game where resource attrition is supposed to be a thing, at will healing for the whole party has no spot IMHO.

There is only one other similar ability in the game, and it is the Champion’s Capstone Survivor, that only works for him, not for the party, and is available only 3 levels latter.
 

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Thurmas

Explorer
I see no problem with letting a large character use an appropriately sized large weapon given the parameters for monster weapons. A large sized great axe should do 2d12+str. Now, whether the character can maneuver it around while not transformed is another question. I suppose you could get around it a few ways. 6 levels of shadow monk would let you bonus action teleport many places, avoiding the movement penalty or encumbrance. You could also take 3 levels of Eldritch Knight, bond a large weapon, and just summon it to yourself with a bonus action any time you need it.

Alternatively, you could take 3 level of Warlock and Pact of the Blade. What's to say your Pact weapon isn't a large great axe or a pair of large short swords? Plus, you get two pact spells to misty step around the battlefield, ignoring the 5 foot movement a bit. At level 8, once you get two attacks and hunters mark, that's 4d12+2d6+8, rerolling 1s and 2s. Maybe vhuman for Great Weapon Master and a little more fun.
 
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Xeviat

Hero
Nope. Colossus slayer is a d8 to a target that had already taken damage at no action cost. New thing is objectively weaker

One average point difference, but it works on first blood too. Sounds like a fair trade.


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At first glance I like these. I have said the spell-less ranger fits well with a rogue for a while (although I don't see any problems with a scout fighter subclass too for people who want the big damage 4e ranger feel). I am glad the warden is getting some more love in 5e; I tended to look at the earth and critter versions of the warden more than the plant ones, but that gives me hope for future subclasses. The horizon walker is probably my favorite--it feels like somebody who specializes in fighting outsiders, unlike the "hates undead" subclasses for the cleric and druid.
 

cbwjm

Seb-wejem
I actually find the 3rd level +1d6 abilities to be a little boring, the planar one at least has the added benefit of ignoring damage resistances. I'd prefer something else instead of them.

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Belltent

First Post
One average point difference, but it works on first blood too. Sounds like a fair trade.


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Damage-wise, yes. However, colossus slayer will never consume your bonus action. This will *always* consume your bonus action. This feels more like compensation for a ranger who has decided to not TWF than a ranger that has decided to not go Hunter.

We could also add that there's a fair chance that both conclaves spend their first round bonus action hunter's marking, which puts us back at d8 for free vs. d6 for a bonus with the race starting at round 2 for both parties. There's decent competition for a ranger's bonus, so I think colossus finishes markedly ahead.
 

Thurmas

Explorer
Also, just because your movement speed is at 5, you can still jump normally, correct? Standing long jump lets you move 8 feet with 16 str. Cast jump on yourself (doesn't even require concentration) and you can hop 24 feet from place to place for a full minute. By your second ASI in str, you're back to your 30 foot movement.
 

Healing will break anything?

No.

It will make a lot of combats easier?

Yes.

It saves a lot of resources to the party by healing everyone to half HP with no cost.

And how often do you face insta-death effects?

Some of the most dangerous combats will evolve this, but over 99% of combats will involve someone dealing damage to you or your friends, so the aura is always useful. And I think it’s safe to assume that over 80% of combat situations ONLY involve damage as direct threats to the PCs life. How many monsters have petrification, disintegration, etc?

You're ignoring 50% of what I wrote by focusing purely on petrificiation/disintegration--it's just as easy to get torn to shreds by a horde of monsters (remember, it only takes two melee hits to kill someone at zero HP) or grappled and pulled out of healing range of the healer or drained to zero HP by Shadows.

The aura is useful only when someone is below half HP, within 30' of the Guardian, the Guardian has already transformed, and the Guardian is not incapacitated. It's not bad, but I have yet to see someone point out a niche where it is important. All it does is make easy fights easier and slightly cheaper. Of all the deaths that I have seen since starting 5E, maybe 20% of them would have been prevented by having a 15th level Guardian around.

In a game where resource attrition is supposed to be a thing, at will healing for the whole party has no spot IMHO.

That ship has sailed already. You can already heal thousands of HP per long rest by PHB rules by 10th level. Plus all the extra HP that is available via Polymorph, wildshaping, and temp HP sources (warlocks, death monks, battleragers, etc.). HP are plentiful in 5E. The only reasons to be chary with HP are (1) roleplaying reasons, because injury is painful; (2) tactical reasons, because you're afraid you might run into something that will TPK or kill you if you're at low HP.

In case #1, the Guardian's aura is irrelevant.

In case #2, you don't want to be left at half HP by the Guardian anyway--you want to be restored to full HP+ ASAP. The Guardian's aura might or might not reduce the total resources required to get you back up to full health.

There is only one other similar ability in the game, and it is the Champion’s Capstone Survivor, that only works for him, not for the party, and is available only 3 levels latter.

As I read it, the Guardian's ability works only for the rest of the party, not for the Guardian. It's kind of the inverse of the Champion's ability in that regard.

Still, good point. The Guardian shouldn't be able to steal the Champion's only cool toy. That doesn't make the Guardian Aura overpowered, but it does make it questionable design.
 

Jumping is a special type of movement and I would rule it is bound by the five foot max, that's a5e rulings not rules area and not specified. Like the extra damage for large weapon. The closest thing is the plus 1d4 included in enlarge spell, I'd use that
 

DaviMMS

First Post
You're ignoring 50% of what I wrote by focusing purely on petrificiation/disintegration--it's just as easy to get torn to shreds by a horde of monsters (remember, it only takes two melee hits to kill someone at zero HP) or grappled and pulled out of healing range of the healer or drained to zero HP by Shadows.

Never my intention. Just picked the 1st 2 effects that can ignore this ability and added an etc.

If your DM wants to kill a downed character is indeed pretty easy.


But in most tables I known is kind of an unwritten rule that downed characters would be ignored while active enemies still exist. But that's very unrealistic so let's ignore it.


Even ignoring that, is normal to expect that many enemies would stop attacking the 1st time that the character fall. But as soon as it fall once or twice and comes back up, they would certainly do something more permanent.


It will be pretty hard to grapple someone within 30 feet of the Guardian if you're not flying.


First of all the other melee members of your party are very likely to have High Dex or Str values, and is pretty common for then to also have proficiency in Athletics or Acrobatics, so it will be hard to grapple then. Also, is much rarer for monsters to have skill proficiency than PCs.


That's irrelevant if they are down but even so, the monster will be carrying someone, resulting in half movement, and it is through difficult terrain area, movement is halved again. So, a 30 feet moving enemy would carry ally outstanding 7,5 feet away from you. 15 feet if they dash. Even a tree can follow that.


Flying or very high move speeds can avoid that. I also think there is a rule somewhere that let you move while grappling someone without spending extra movement if you are at least 2 sizes bigger than the target, but I am not sure. So, Huge or Gargantuan enemies can also move away grappling easily.

Another thing that makes harder for the enemies to move away are the ranger spells. Just entangle, spike growth and ensnaring strike already make much more difficult to move away from the Ranger. Probably, there are also other spells that also work for that purpose.

And even if they actually grapple an ally out of your heal zone, the one attack they lost to use grapple is likely to deal much more damage than you can heal in one or two rounds, so that is good.


The aura is useful only when someone is below half HP, within 30' of the Guardian, the Guardian has already transformed, and the Guardian is not incapacitated. It's not bad, but I have yet to see someone point out a niche where it is important. All it does is make easy fights easier and slightly cheaper. Of all the deaths that I have seen since starting 5E, maybe 20% of them would have been prevented by having a 15th level Guardian around.
I am not really much worried about the combat potential of the ability. Other than reviving fallen characters is mostly fine. What I do not like is the infinite out of combat healing.


That ship has sailed already. You can already heal thousands of HP per long rest by PHB rules by 10th level. Plus all the extra HP that is available via Polymorph, wildshaping, and temp HP sources (warlocks, death monks, battleragers, etc.).

Most of that only works by spending resources or with some pre-requisite.

A bard or a paladin can indeed use Aura of Vitality to heal everyone to full, but the paladin is using his highest spell slot available, and the Bard one of his precious Magical Secrets and one of his 3 3rd level slot that they have by that level. I am not saying is a bad use of a spell slot, it is an outstanding one, but it has a cost. And while in theory it can heal thousands HP, it will probably heal a two or three hundred at most.
Edit: I made this last statement thinking Aura of Vitality lasted 10 minutes. Ignore it.
Polymorph limits highly the capabilities of the targeted PC. If it was played correctly instead of generating a tactics master 3 intelligence T-rex, it would be a much weaker spell, but that is another discussion. And again, has a spell slot cost.

And what battlerager ability are you referring to? The one that gives you up to 5 HP by giving everyone advantage to hit you? How is that even comparable?

The monk and the warlock abilities are indeed pretty good, but TempHP still don’t stack and the power of the abilities will vary wildly by the presence or absence of mooks on the battle.


As I read it, the Guardian's ability works only for the rest of the party, not for the Guardian. It's kind of the inverse of the Champion's ability in that regard.

I missed that on my 1st reading.

“I am obviously my on ally so it should work on me” Said a player somewhere.

Edited to organize and add stuff.
 
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