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bganon

Explorer
Do you find you encounter some of the same problems when a Druid Wildshapes into a Large creature like a Brown Bear?

Honestly haven't had Druids - but bears don't wield weapons. Or have opposable thumbs, even. Most of the mechanically relevant stuff the bear form could do is laid out in their stat block.

How do you deal with the Enlarge spell?

The Enlarge spell specifically states that the weapons grow too, and gives a value for the increased damage. The result is PCs don't need to think about grabbing new weapons. It's a well-written effect - it lays out relevant mechanical consequences. Guardian Soul doesn't.

In the end it could just say "you receive the benefits of the Enlarge spell along with these additional effects", and that'd be pretty straightforward to adjudicate. But that's not what they wrote.
 

Having rules text that lets you avoid arguments with players about weapons and whatnot is indeed a Good Thing. It's very easy for players to get excited about 4d6 greatswords or whatnot, and get quite annoyed and aggrieved when they are forbidden it; just like it is very easy for a DM to be worried about balance and the daft mental image of carrying around 10ft long greatswords, and get annoyed at being made out as the bad guy when (s)he forbids it. Regardless of who is right, both sides are likely to be annoyed at the outcome. So the way that Enlarge sidesteps the issue by saying up front 'here is how your weapon damage increases' is really good, and I think something that should definitely be incorporated into any new feature that has a similar effect.
 

seebs

Adventurer
02_UA_Underdark_Characters.pdf
04_UA_Classics_Revisited.pdf
1_UA_Artificer_20170109.pdf
2016_Fighter_UA_1205_1.pdf
2017_01_UA_RangerRogue_0117JCMM.pdf
M_2016_UAMonk1_12_12WKWT.pdf
UA5_VariantRules.pdf
UA_Bard.pdf
UA_Cleric.pdf
UA_Druid11272016_CAWS.pdf
UA_Eberron_v1.1.pdf
UA-Feats-V1.pdf
UA_ModernMagic.pdf
UAPaladin_SO_20161219_1.pdf
UA_RevisedRanger.pdf
UA_Rune_Magic_Prestige_Class.pdf
UA_Waterborne_v3.pdf

What I think really defines the UA column is the naming scheme used for the files, which allows you to consistently identify which order they were in (02, 04, or 5), their posting date, their approximate posting month, or something else, and the way that "UA" is always the start of the name or found somewhere in the middle of it, and sometimes has an underscore.

This attention to detail has really defined the whole Wizards web experience for me.
 

OB1

Jedi Master
The Enlarge spell specifically states that the weapons grow too, and gives a value for the increased damage. The result is PCs don't need to think about grabbing new weapons. It's a well-written effect - it lays out relevant mechanical consequences. Guardian Soul doesn't.

In the end it could just say "you receive the benefits of the Enlarge spell along with these additional effects", and that'd be pretty straightforward to adjudicate. But that's not what they wrote.

Having rules text that lets you avoid arguments with players about weapons and whatnot is indeed a Good Thing. It's very easy for players to get excited about 4d6 greatswords or whatnot, and get quite annoyed and aggrieved when they are forbidden it; just like it is very easy for a DM to be worried about balance and the daft mental image of carrying around 10ft long greatswords, and get annoyed at being made out as the bad guy when (s)he forbids it. Regardless of who is right, both sides are likely to be annoyed at the outcome. So the way that Enlarge sidesteps the issue by saying up front 'here is how your weapon damage increases' is really good, and I think something that should definitely be incorporated into any new feature that has a similar effect.

I'm not following you here. Just because the enlarge spell specifies what happens to your weapon, how do you rule if they want to carry around a 4d6 greatsword to use when they are enlarged (assuming they throw it to the ground before being enlarged and then pick it up after, because otherwise it would still be too big for you)? Since the guardian doesn't state that, it means that the weapons you are carrying aren't enlarged and therefore don't do the additional 1d4 damage.
 

Well, because if they do that, then when they pick up the larger-than-normal Greatsword it simply does 2d6+d4 damage, as the spell states. In other words, there is already a method for 'what happens if I try to use a huge weapon' right in the spell text.
 

Al2O3

Explorer
Wasn't that just a rules artifact in the Grappler feat?
There was a rules artifact in the feat (I can't find it since my book fell apart and was replaced) but there is also the actual rule.

"The target of your grapple must be no more than one size larger than you and must be within your reach."
Start of second paragraph of Grappling, page 195 of PHB.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using EN World mobile app
 

OB1

Jedi Master
[MENTION=32659]Charles Rampant[/MENTION] I agree that a creature who has been enlarged has the weapons it is carrying enlarged and that those do and extra 1d4 damage. But what if the enlarged creature picks up or carries around a weapon one size to large for it to use when enlarged as is being discussed for the Guardian? If on their person when the spell is cast, the 4d6 Large Greatsword would become a 4d6 + 1d4 Huge Greatsword, and still wouldn't be usable by the PC. If they throw it on the ground during the transformation, they could pick it up as a Large Greatsword at 4d6 but I would rule that they don't get to use their proficiency bonus on attacks, since they are not proficient with Large Greatswords.

This is the exact same ruling I would make with a Guardian if they tried the same trick. The only difference is that when the Guardian grows, her equipment doesn't grow with her and thus doesn't get the 1d4 bonus damage like the spell does. That makes sense to me both in crunch and fluff, and so I don't think it requires a change.
 

bganon

Explorer
I'm not following you here. Just because the enlarge spell specifies what happens to your weapon, how do you rule if they want to carry around a 4d6 greatsword to use when they are enlarged (assuming they throw it to the ground before being enlarged and then pick it up after, because otherwise it would still be too big for you)? Since the guardian doesn't state that, it means that the weapons you are carrying aren't enlarged and therefore don't do the additional 1d4 damage.

Guardian Soul doesn't say your armor grows either, so do you destroy it every time you use the feature? I'd say obviously not since that would make it pretty useless - which means the designers are assuming something. But I can't read their minds to know what other things they assumed I should understand about how it works.

And the point is not to avoid ever having to make a DM ruling. The point is to make DM ruling an uncommon case, rather than something I'll have to do right away the first time the feature is used. Enlarge essentially answers the FAQs so I don't have to, but of course it doesn't cover every situation. Guardian Soul doesn't even address the obvious questions.
 

OB1

Jedi Master
[MENTION=60886]bganon[/MENTION] Agree it's a bit vague and could use a clarification similar to when a druid changes form, but the intent I am reading is certainly that you do not gain benefits similar to the enlarge spell. It only affects size and reach.

But how does Enlarge answer the question of using weapons from creatures of the new size you are?
 

Staffan

Legend
It's ironic to see everyone objecting to Large size on this thread as extremely powerful, when in the general case, if you comment on how e.g. Mounted Combatant is a very strong feat, so many people will turn right around and tell you that you can't get Large-sized mounts into adventuring locations like dungeons and that Mounted Combatant is therefore useless. Both of these things cannot be true simultaneously.
The disadvantage with Mounted Combatant and dungeons isn't so much the Large size, but rather that horses have pretty big problems walking down stairs (unless they're specifically built for horses with a very shallow slope) and otherwise negotiating the kind of rough terrain you find in a typical dungeon.

Height would be a secondary concern. A big horse (which is what you want to carry a fighter in heavy armor) would be 5-6' tall at the "shoulder", plus about 3-4' of rider. That's 8-10 feet - so if an ogre can walk around comfortably, so can a horseback rider. But in a regular house... no.
 

[MENTION=32659]Charles Rampant[/MENTION] I agree that a creature who has been enlarged has the weapons it is carrying enlarged and that those do and extra 1d4 damage. But what if the enlarged creature picks up or carries around a weapon one size to large for it to use when enlarged as is being discussed for the Guardian? If on their person when the spell is cast, the 4d6 Large Greatsword would become a 4d6 + 1d4 Huge Greatsword, and still wouldn't be usable by the PC. If they throw it on the ground during the transformation, they could pick it up as a Large Greatsword at 4d6 but I would rule that they don't get to use their proficiency bonus on attacks, since they are not proficient with Large Greatswords.
I think the point he's making is that a Large Greatsword is a Large Greatsword, and under the effects of the enlarge spell, you deal an extra d4 damage compared to medium size no matter whether the weapon grew with you or you just picked it up.
 

plisnithus8

Adventurer
What happens to a Guardian size large in an 8' tunnel?
Can it attain size large? or is it like the enlarge spell and only grows 8' tall? or Is it 10' and has to squeeze?
Does an 8' character get large features?
Does the large ranger get the advantage on Strength checks and saves?


"Enlarge
The target’s size doubles in all dimensions, and its weight is multiplied by eight. This growth increases its size by one category – from Medium to Large, for example. If there isn’t enough room for the target to double its size, the creature or object attains the maximum possible sizei n the space available. Until the spell ends, the target also has advantage on Strength checks and Strength saving throws. The target’s weapons also grow to match its new size. While these weapons are enlarged, the target’s attack with them deal 1d4 extra damage."

"Squeezing into a Smaller Space:
A creature can squeeze through a space that is large enough for a creature one size smaller than it. Thus, a Large creature can squeeze through a passage that's only 5 feet wide. While squeezing through a space, a creature must spend 1 extra foot for every foot it moves there, and it has disadvantage on attack rolls and Dexterity saving throws. Attack rolls against the creature have advantage while it’s in the smaller space."
 

OB1

Jedi Master
I think the point he's making is that a Large Greatsword is a Large Greatsword, and under the effects of the enlarge spell, you deal an extra d4 damage compared to medium size no matter whether the weapon grew with you or you just picked it up.

I understand the point he is trying to make, I'm arguing that it is incorrect.

The +1d4 is to account for the Medium creature weapon you have growing larger and being under the effect of the magic of the enlarge spell, but that doesn't make the enlarged weapon a Large Creature Weapon. It's a bigger version of a Medium Creature weapon that now does an additional 1d4 damage. This is all magic stuff and it explains why the weapons when you are enlarged don't get the full benefit of Large Creature weapon damage dice.

If you had on your person a Large Creature Weapon, it's something you are not proficient in, and thus still cannot use with proficiency bonus when you are under the effect of the Enlarge spell, whether the weapon grew as part of the casting (and thus got the 1d4 bonus damage) or you picked it up after (and didn't).

In the case of the Guardian, even if the weapon grows, the magic does not confer the 1d4 damage bonus.
 

@OB1 can you provide a rules reference to back up your central assumption that there is such a thing as a 'Large Greatsword'? As my understanding of the rules goes - often demonstrated to be shaky! - there is no such thing; simply that many creatures of Large or greater size also happen to use more dice with their attacks, as a way of giving the image of big, hefty swings. I further understand that the system basically mandates 'damage per CR', and that creatures reach that level through lesser or greater number of attacks, and that big creatures (Giants, etc) tend to have fewer attacks for larger proportions of the mandated damage. In other words, there may be a CR 5 ExampleGiant that is Large sized and does 2d8 damage in one hit with a Longsword, and a CR 5 ExampleHumanoid that is Medium sized may do 2d8 damage in two separate hits, and we are not meant to assume that anything meaningful is being said about the weapon difference between the two.

For the same reason, just because a Bugbear does 2d8 damage with its club, does not mean that a human fighter - or even a PC Bugbear! - can pick up said club and do that extra damage; the game spells it out in that instance, to be fair, but I thought that the essential point is the same in all cases. Giants do 3d8 damage with their clubs not because of the clubs, but because they are Giants, and their fighting style, size, muscles - whatever - means that they do that damage. If a PC grew to their size, and could wield said club, (s)he would not do that 3d8 because they are not Giants and thus do not get to use their rules.
 
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OB1

Jedi Master
[MENTION=32659]Charles Rampant[/MENTION] - Don't have my books in front of me so this will have to wait for tonight, and you may be right, but if so my central conclusion remains the same. Since the rules for Guardian don't state that the PCs weapon does extra damage in Guardian form, it doesn't. There is no rules weirdness here.

The argument from earlier was about how Guardians would be dragging around swords meant for large creatures to do extra damage when they transform. My point was that even if such a weapon existed, the character wouldn't be proficient in it and thus wouldn't get proficiency bonus to attack and thus suffer a meaningful disadvantage if they attempt to use this tactic. If those weapons simply don't exist (if there is no sword that inherently does 3d8 or 4d6 damage) then the problem is moot. Whether Ranger Groot uses his regular long sword or a giant's long sword, he does 1d8 damage.

Please note, I do think there is a reasonable argument that Ranger Groot should get to add a 1d4 to damage in the same way an enlarged creature does, but this is a matter of taste/balance/opinion, not anything that is wrong with the particular class feature as written as was stated earlier.
 

Well, I'd say that your real problem there is insisting that the player should get to do more damage for having a larger weapon. I'd simply deny that element, and say that the player gets to follow the normal damage rules until and unless explicitly allowed by something that they did. In other words, they don't get to toss more dice around just for having worked out a way to use a weapon that came from a statblock that was not designed to be compatible with the player rules. This is not 3e, there is no assumption of monsters and characters following the same rules. So I am confident that you will find no evidence to support your idea in the books - but if you do, I will be forced to eat my hat. :)
 

Ashkelon

First Post
It is important to note that the DMG rules for large weapons are in relation to monster creation rules only. They are not intended as rules for modeling the game world. There exists no rule in 5e that say a large sized PC's weapons deal additional damage. There is also no rule that states that a larger sized PC will benefit from the damage of a large sized creatures weapons.
 

OB1

Jedi Master
[MENTION=28068]charles[/MENTION] rampart - I'm not arguing for the extra damage dice. It was my impression from some other posters that the rules for larger weapons explicitly stated higher damages, and simply said that if a PC tried to use one while enlarged, I would rule they were not proficient, solving the problem of the halfling dragging around a Large Battle Axe to use when they go into Guardian mode. If instead damage is directly related to the creature, not the weapon, then of course the PC doesn't gain those stats just by becoming large. It was [MENTION=60886]bganon[/MENTION] who was arguing that something was confusing about the Guardian because of this. I don't see any confusion regardless of which rule is used.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
The power the person I was responding to was Ancient Fortitude, and they were talking about entering and leaving guardian form to heal 2*level HPs each time. That's been changed to once per rest (short or long).

I saw that and I too thought "damn, unlimited HP". It's good that it's been changed but... *where*? Where is this correction coming from?

thanks!
 

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