Law: New use for Knowledge (Local)

[Quickleaf]

I'm creating 2 feats for my "Caliphate Nights" setting. I've finished one, but I'm having trouble coming up with ideas for what Honest Law can be used for. Do you have any suggestions?


Honest Law
Prerequisite: Literacy, Trained in Diplomacy and Knowledge (Local)
You are well versed in the letter and spirit of the Sharia, and you’re committed to using such knowledge for the good of your community and nation.

Honest Law: New Uses for the Knowledge (Local) Skill
DC....Task
10....Prompt reply for minor request (application, license, permit, visa)
10....Knowing which official to approach and the best time
10....?
15....Find an unbiased qadi to try a case
15....Get backup for a specific legal task. Typically this includes a number of 1st level characters equal to your Expert level who are assembled in one day. You must be able to communicate with a mosque or honest government official to get backup. Using backup negligently or manipulating them for extra-legal activities is a criminal offense.
20....Get access to normally secret government documents if they in some way pertain to your current case.
20....?
25....?
Opposed Skill Check: Design a contract with no loose ends. Track illicitly gotten wealth. Defend/prosecute a court case heard by a council (not a dictator). Detect a forged legal document (see Dishonest Law).

Dishonest Law
Prerequisite: Trained in Diplomacy and Knowledge (Local)
You know how to manipulate the Sharia to your own advantage. You may use Knowledge (Local) to perform cunning legal tricks.

Dishonest Law: New Uses for the Knowledge (Local) Skill
DC....Task
10....Avoid close inspection within city (not palace) or avoid police harassment
10....Get around the riba – the law preventing the charging of interest
15....Get minor charges dropped or find a biased qadi to try a case
15....Waive minor taxes and fees
20....Create delays (paperwork mismanaged, trials put off)
20....Move wealth between cities or even countries (e.g. from Baghdad to Cordoba), smuggle goods, or convert illicit goods to silver standard.
25....Find a loophole in the sharia or make paperwork disappear. Such a loophole may only be used once and may incite the faithful.
25....Secretly channel money into a “heretical” business or cause
Opposed Skill Check: Create a contract with loose ends. Create or detect a forged legal document. This is opposed by anyone with Craft (Manuscript) or someone with the Dishonest or Honest Law feat on a Knowledge (Local) check. You must be literate and have Craft (Manuscript) in order to forge a document.

 

[Jdvn1]

Maybe your games are very different, but I dont' think these are worth feats. Why not have it be a use of the skill?

 

[Quickleaf]

Good question. Because legal/bureaucratic knowledge requires local knowledge, but having local knowledge (e.g. a beggar) doesn't mean you know about the bureaucracy. I'm trying to reflect a bureaucracy that, while stretched thin, was arguably one of the greatest in the world with a central condified religious law that often is debated. You may be the most charismatic rogue in the world, but if you don't know the law how can you argue your case? You may be the best pickpocket on the streets, but you'll need someone to broker a deal for your ruby in Cordobe, won't you? Also, the opposed skill checks are very useful (you're right, I do run a *different* kind of game ), especially designing a full-proof contract in a setting with wish-granting djinn.

That said, any ideas?

 

[Jdvn1]

Just to mention...

Local (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids)

It strikes me that a beggar wouldn't have much K(Local) if he spends all of his time on the streets. He probably doesn't know much of a variety of legends and laws and customs and such. It seems like K(Local) covers a lot of what you mentioned, but then again, I think Track is already covered by Survival flavor-wise. This feat, then, might fall in the same line of thought.

If you made a Storyhour, I'd be interested to read it, though. This is more politics than I've seen.

 

[Quickleaf]

Well, I'm too busy writing up the setting now to put up a story hour. Maybe at some point I will. As for the feats, yes they're definitely in the same line of thought as the Track feat. In fact, I'm doing this in several places in the game, where a feat "unlocks" new uses of a skill.
I suppose the plus side is that it clarifies how a skill can be used and minimizes arguments about "but my players knows how to...!" And the down side is that it might detract from the initial uses of a skill and make players feel shafted. Hopefully not.

 

[Thanee]

I can only highly recommend ditching the feat idea and just make it a use of the skill... if you want to represent a certain affiliation with the customs, maybe require some Profession (beaurocrat) ranks? I think that would make a lot of sense and would make that skill useful, too.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Nifft]

I'd make the skill able to do what it already does -- knowlege of laws, etc. -- but have a feat called something like Lawyer or Barrister which allows you to practice law (as opposed to merely have a decent idea what the law is).

Kn(Local) would help you avoid getting caught doing something wrong (or help you avoid doing something illegal in the first place), while the feat Lawyer would allow you to make Kn(Local) checks to get your party out of trouble once you are caught doing something illegal.

-- N

PS: I'd make the top one (honest law) use ranks in Kn(Local) and Kn(History), while the latter (dishonest law) would use ranks in Kn(Local) and either Diplomacy or Bluff.

 

[Quickleaf]

Hey Nifft! Yes, that's exactly what I'm doing. The feats are the practice of law, allowing you to use KL to do things you couldn't otherwise do with it. Instead of having the feats be this vague "you know about laws and can practice as a lawyer", I'm attempting to codify uses of the law (both generic and setting-specific).

The Track feat could just say: "You can find and follow tracks left by other creatures. To find tracks or to follow them for one mile requires a successful Survival check. You must make another Survival check each time the tracks become difficult to follow."

But it does much more than that. It provides some base DCs based upon the surface you're tracking on, and some modifiers based upon other conditions (size of group/creature, time elapsed, weather, visibility). This makes it far more useful to the GM.

Similarly, my aim is to make resolving legal disputes and twisting the law to one's advantage easier for the GM to run. Thus, I provide more than just: "You can defend a case in the legal system. To defend a case before a monarch or research a precedent requires a successful Knowledge (Local) check. You must make an opposed KL check when in a trial with an opposed defense and prosecution."
Consider the list of DCs I provide like the Surface DCs & Modifiers listed for the Track feat; they expand what a character can do and provide the GM with a clear way in which to arbitrate the PC's attempt.

 

[Tonguez]

I'd stick with the feats but expand their usefulness to other aspects of the Lawyers trade. Perhaps the Honest Law feats gives the PC a reputation bonus to all Diplomacy checks

IMC I have two feats
Friends in High Places = +2 bonus to Diplomacy and Gather Information (represents NPC contact in the Bureaucracy)
Friends in Low Places = +2 bonus to Intimidate and Gather Information (represents NPC contact in the criminal underworld)

use them if they are useful