Lay on hands and temporary charisma boost

[Arthedain]

Say we have a "standard" 7.level paladin, with Charisma 16. The paladin is able to use Lay on Hands and heal a grand total of 21 (level x charisma mod) hp per day.

Now, if my understanding of the rules is correct, if the paladin uses a Eagle's Splendor spell/potion/scroll/whatnot, he will have a Charisma of 20, thus increasing his healing power from 21 to 35 hp per day.

Now, let us say that the paladin heals some of his companions during a fight, and use all of the 35 hitpoints. What happends when the Eagle's Splendor spell expires? Is his Lay on Hands total:

Option 1) 0 hp ... no healing for you!
Option 2) -14 hp ... even less healing for you... but what does this mean for the paladin? Less healing the next day?


So far in my campaign I've run this according to option 1, and I don't think it's really a big deal. Besides, my party is light on healing ability, so those extra hp sure come in handy. But on the other hand I'd like to know that I run things according to the rules (or the intent of the rules, if they are unclear )

Thanks in advance for any input.

 

[Li Shenron]

As you say, 1) is not a big deal and I think it's the best way to handle this. I don't see why a Charisma increase shouldn't improve all Cha-based features. In the Lay on Hands case I think it's fair that it grants more healing power beyond your normal daily capabilities, like the spell granted more force of personality for a while.

 

[KarinsDad]

However, there is the question of what happens if the Paladin uses up 10 of his 35 heal points while under the influence of the Eagle's Splendor spell and then the spell expires.

Does he have 11 points left (21 - 10) or all 21 left (35 - 10, max 21)?

Since there does not appear to be a rule for this (tmk), I look at it like Temporary Hit Points where the damage comes off the temporary points first (using the similar situation rule from the DMG). So, in the case of the Paladin, his heal comes off his Temporary Heal Points first and with this example, he has 21 heal points left over.

Which for the original poster's question would result in option 1 for his question.


I could see another DM ruling that he would have 11 points left, similar to having a CON boost due to Bear's Endurance and then losing all of the hit points gained when the spell expires. This would result in option 2 (but negative healing only means that if his CHA is boosted a second time, he would be unable to heal more).

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Treat them like temporary hit points:

You get 14 points of healing extra. If you now use all 35 and the spell ends, you end up with 0 points of healing (no -14 or something). If you don't heal anything before the spell expires, the 14 points are gone again.

 

[KarinsDad]

Treat them like temporary hit points:

You get 14 points of healing extra. If you now use all 35 and the spell ends, you end up with 0 points of healing (no -14 or something). If you don't heal anything before the spell expires, the 14 points are gone again.

One problem with treating them like Temporary Hit Points is that if you have a Cloak of Eagle's Splendor, you get 2 * level more heal points per day. If someone casts Eagle's Splendor on you five times in the same day, you could potentially heal 2 * level * 5 more points.

If you treat them like CON bonus points to hit points (and go into negative numbers as per option #2), this does not happen.

 

[drunkmoogle]

The way I look at it, the Pally has -14 lays left, but regenerates then all at rest (so the next day, he'll have used 0/21 of his Lay ability). Basically, this means that after the spell has worn off, the Pally used up 35/21 HP this day, and any future increase in his CHA doesn't change the amount of Laying the Pally has done.

Basically: remember the amount of HP the Pally has healed, and only change the daily amount of HP that could be healed. If this causes the Pally to exceed his maximum, don't worry about it. That just means that he can't use the ability until he gets a bigger boost to CHA or rests.

 

[thompgc]

I remember reading about this somewhere recently - no clue where though.
I suggested that the way to handle it was to track how many has been used, not how much is left. So if the paladin heals 21 you would mark down 21 points used, not 0 left. If then has charisma boosted by 4, then could now heal up to 35 for the day, so heals 14 more. Thus has now used 35 points. The spell then wears off and is cast again. Doesn't get any more healing out of it as has already used 35 points, and only has 35 points available. Now if someone gave the paladin a +6 Charisma item the max lay on hands would be 42, but has already used 35 so only has 7 left.

The advantage over tracking the amount left is you don't need to adjust amount used when charisma changes but do need to adjust amount left. Also some people don't like negative numbers.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

One problem with treating them like Temporary Hit Points is that if you have a Cloak of Eagle's Splendor, you get 2 * level more heal points per day. If someone casts Eagle's Splendor on you five times in the same day, you could potentially heal 2 * level * 5 more points.

If you treat them like CON bonus points to hit points (and go into negative numbers as per option #2), this does not happen.

Right. Well, Drunkmoogle's got it right, then.

 

[Li Shenron]

However, there is the question of what happens if the Paladin uses up 10 of his 35 heal points while under the influence of the Eagle's Splendor spell and then the spell expires.

Which is the problem?

21 is the daily limit without any extra help. To go past that limit you need a Cha boost. If (when) you don't have the Cha boost, you don't go past that limit.

In your case, if he uses 10 that's simply what he has used, no matter if he had the spell on him or not, therefore no matter that the spell goes away, he still has used 10 points of 21.

If he uses e.g. 30 points during the spell, after the spell duration he is out of charged but doesn't matter "how much point out". Eventually, you may want to argue what happens if later he gets another spell, does he have only 5 left now?

But honestly I think the best thing to do is to grant each Eagle's Splendor an extra 14 points (at lv 7) every time you cast it. This way
1) you don't bother keeping track of negative, which makes no sense
2) there is now a reason to cast Eagle's Splendor more than once

 

[Kae'Yoss]

2) there is now a reason to cast Eagle's Splendor more than once

This message was brought to you by C.O.N.F.E.S.S. Confederation of Nerds for the Eagle's Splendour Spell.