Least favorite Prc

[Grog]

That is not true. I can run 3E for the next ten years and never use a PrC. It would not be missed. It would not stop the game.

Then I'll rephrase: Prestige classes have become a critical part of the 3E product line. Better?

 

[Psion]

But when every new supplement that comes out has an entire chapter devoted to them, how optional are they, really?

Uh, they are still ENTIRELY optional. To drive the point home, each class book has a section with words to the effect of "don't even THINK about using anything in here without checking with your DM."

PrCs have become a critical part of 3E, IMO - far more so than any other "optional" rule I can remember from any edition of D&D.

In a 17 level game, we have ONE character with a prestige class. They really are not central to the game. They are garnish and tools to be use when needed, and in a manner that the DM feels is appropriate.

 

[Furn_Darkside]

Then I'll rephrase: Prestige classes have become a critical part of the 3E product line. Better?

Ok, I can see the argument that WOTC has included a lot of them in their books, but why is that a problem?

They have also added a lot of feats and new skill uses.

The more options the better.

I, as the DM, still have veto power over every new option.

FD

 

[Grog]

I'm just discussing something I see as a problem with the 3E rules. Of course I, as a DM, can change the way PrCs work if I want to. But if we're going to accept "The DM can change it" as an answer to criticism of the rules, there's really no point in discussing rules problems on this board, is there?

When I first heard about the idea of prestige classes, I thought they should be something special, rare, and cool. If you don't agree, that's fine - I'm just giving my point of view on the subject.

 

[Al]

I'd go with the True Necromancer. It's so bad as to be unbelievable.

The fact that you have to go multi Clr5/Wiz5 really destroys it. You're still thugging away at 3rd level spells when your single-class companions hit 6th level spells. Clerics are kicking Harms and Wizards knocking off Disintegrates: and your playing with Vampiric Touch. Create Undead and Create Greater Undead, you get later than single-classed cleric. Energy Drain, your 'ultimate' power, you get three levels later than a single-classed wizard. You never get access to 9th level spells.

You suck, in other words.

 

[Furn_Darkside]

ugh.. wounded pride

I'm just discussing something I see as a problem with the 3E rules.

But, you have yet to say what the rule problem is with PrC's.

The only thing you have mentioned that might be a "rule" problem is "low requirements", but I don't see how that is a problem.

If a player sees a PrC a dm approves of, then they are going to make sure they meet the requirements - high or low.

Of course I, as a DM, can change the way PrCs work if I want to. But if we're going to accept "The DM can change it" as an answer to criticism of the rules, there's really no point in discussing rules problems on this board, is there?

You are not understanding the argument- it is not the "DM can change it". It is the "DM has the choice to allow it or not".

If the DM does not allow PrC's, then they are not changing any rule. There is no rule that says PrC's are expected to be in the game.

When I first heard about the idea of prestige classes, I thought they should be something special, rare, and cool.

It seems your problem is not with the rules, but the PrC's are not meeting your expectations.

You then have two options:
1) Adjust the PrC so it is special in your world.
2) Look at FFG's Path books- they have legendary PrC's that have hefty requirements and many people seem to think they are more "special, rare, and cool".

FD

 

[Wolfen Priest]

Grog, I basically agree with you in that I think PrC's are too plentiful in 3e products. But then, I prefer more fluff, less crunch, so that probably puts me in the minority of d20 gamers.

Since PrC's are such an intergral (if not "critical") part of the 3e product line, then I for one would really prefer to see more PrC's shift emphasis toward the actual organization of which they are a part, and away from the rules and powers the class gets.

That being said, I think I agree with the Fang of Lolth being the one that really stuck out as the most ridiculous after having first read it.

However, I also agree that the shadowdancer is probably even worse, overall. To me, hiding in plain sight is about as good a way as any to destroy the suspension of disbelief, turning the game into a cheesy meta-game. It probably didn't help it that it was in the DMG, and to me, the obvious worst of the bunch there.

 

[Furn_Darkside]

Since PrC's are such an intergral (if not "critical") part of the 3e product line, then I for one would really prefer to see more PrC's shift emphasis toward the actual organization of which they are a part, and away from the rules and powers the class gets.

I suspect the more fluff they put on a PrC- the less dm's that will be interested.

However- I can only recall examples from T&B and DoTF, but don't most of the WOTC splat books describe organizations. Many of those organizations tied to a PrC in that book.

FD

 

[Nightfall]

Re: One use for a Shadow Dancer

A buddy of mine played a monk early in our campaign. When I stepped down as DM for a time, another player took up the riegns, and I played a Shadow Adept/Sorcerer. My patron was Shar, and soon enough, the monk tagged along and realized that everything eventually turns to darkness, as everyone knows that darkness will eventually swallow all, and Shar became his patron.

Later, when I began DMing, I took my former PC Shadow Adept and my buddy's monk and made them into powerful NPCs (as I did with all the former original players, as newbies joined, and the focus of the game changed). Xiang (the monk) now has 16 monk levels, and being that he works so closely with Guldraven (my shadow adept, who is also a Chosen of Shar) and that they both worship Shar, Xiang also has 4 Shadowdancer levels. The PrC stems from his supernatural monk abilities, his connections with Shar, and his shadow weave influences through Guldraven.

The Shadowdancer might not have a role in every campaign, but I think it works here.

Course it also works well when you have a CN Goddess of Shadow that's fighing AGAINST some Shadow mages huh Mike?

 

[Nightfall]

My vote for one I'll probably never allow, Basically ANY from Sword and Fist and DEFINATELY not Guild mage or Arch mage (unless it's a FR campaign)