Least favorite Prc

[Furn_Darkside]

True enough, though I've always found that attitude to be a bit silly.

I don't agree with the attitude, but I would not call it silly.

A DM has a lot of work to do- and when a player wants to bring something new in that is tied to fluff (setting, group, whatever)- it means a handful of more work. Not just tearing down the existing fluff, but seeing how tightly the fluff is interlaced with the mechanics- and then trying to build campeign-based fluff around what is left.

I may not have a problem with doing this, but I can understand the concern of dm's who don't want to go through the process.

FD

 

[drquestion]

My biggest gripe with prestige classes is that there are too many 10-level classes as opposed to 5-level ones.

As I see it, a prestige class ought to fill one of 4 major functions:

1) Special training unique to a particular organization, or class of organizations, like the Vigilant from R&R, or the Assassin, or the Tatooed Monk from OA, to name a few.

2) A fighting style. This would include many of the clan-specific PrC from OA and Rokugan, and could also encompass things like the Weapon Master and the Iaijutsu Master.

3) Either a new type of magic, or a very specific focus on one area of magic. Good examples of this would be the PrC's from Occult Lore and Spells and Magic.

4) An extremely specific supernatural ability, like the above-mentioned Bear Warrior, or the Dragon Disciple.

As I see it, in most cases, categories 1 and 2 would be better served with 5-level PrC's. In a world with normal D&D demographics, 10th level is fairly high, so it would seem sensible that most organization training and fighting styles could be "mastered" by 10th level, with 5 levels in a core class and 5 in the PrC. Sure, a few classes like the Iaijutsu Maste that represent more a philosophy of fighting than a specific set of maneuvers could be 10-level, but they should be more rare compared to 5-level classes.

Category 4 would also be served better with 5-level classes. If all you're doing is developling some supernatural ability, like polymorphing into a bear, or slowly turning into a 1/2 dragon, why stretch it out over 10 levels, half the career of a non-epic character? A 5-level progression would work better.

As I see it, only new types of magic more or less require 10-level classes, since they fundamentally change the way a caster works.

drquestion

P.S. - So that I don't completely ignore the original question of this thread, my least favorite PrC has to be the Shadow Adept. He essentially loses nothing, and gains a bunch of supernatural abilities.

 

[jmucchiello]

My biggest gripe with prestige classes is that there are too many 10-level classes as opposed to 5-level ones.

Actually I feel most 10-level classes should be 8-levels. Sometimes the padding is fairly obvious. I don't like 5-level classes because they pack too much punch into to short a span.

I feel anything that changes the character completely: dragon disciple, ooze master, becomes an outsider, etc. should be 10-level. It should be a crowning achievement. Not just some ability you pick up along the way.

Joe Mucchiello
Throwing Dice Games
http://www.throwingdice.com

 

[Furn_Darkside]

Re: Re: ugh.. wounded pride

Well, how about making the core classes almost irrelevant?

Ok- first you complain that the PrC's should be: "something special, rare, and cool."

Now- you are complaining they overshadow the core classes?

With so many PrCs out there with abilities beyond the core classes, all the core classes become is mere stepping stones to get to a PrC or two (or three...)

And I think the low requirements are a problem, because they mean that a PC could simply take a level or two in five or six different PrC to get their front-loaded abilities, then move on to something else.

Are you still refusing to acknowledge that, within the rules, a PC can abuse PrC's, only if the DM allows it?

Are some PrC's too powerful? Sure
Are some PrC's too weak? You betcha.
Are some PrC's too general? Yup
Are some PrC's too specific? Yes!

But you know what is the ultimate beauty about having so many options?

The DM gets to choose which fit into which category- not a single game producer.

If a DM does not want to have to face these decisions, then they might want to be running a published campeign which, more then likely, supplies appropriate PrC's for that campeign.

FD

 

[Furn_Darkside]

My biggest gripe with prestige classes is that there are too many 10-level classes as opposed to 5-level ones.

If I have any gripe about PrC size, then it is the belief there should be a set # for all or most PrC's- each PrC should be the right number of levels for that PrC.

Everytime I see "free feat" in a PrC, I wince, just take that level out.

FD

 

[drquestion]

Originally posted by jmucchiello
I feel anything that changes the character completely: dragon disciple, ooze master, becomes an outsider, etc. should be 10-level. It should be a crowning achievement. Not just some ability you pick up along the way.

They way I see it is, for a lot of campaigns 5 levels is a lot of levels. And, if you're getting little else besides the achievement of this supernatural ability, and maybe 1 or 2 related abilities, why stretch it out to a 10-level class?

If you're in a campaign with faster advancement, you could simply mandate that a character can only take a level of the class every other character level, which would slow the acquisition of the ability without adding a bunch of pointless levels.

drquestion

Edit: fixed a bit of sloppy grammar.

 

[TiQuinn]

I like the Shadowdancer, despite the fact that the DMG doesn't really give us a great idea of what their role in a campaign is, per se. However, the powers of the PrC almost create the concept by themselves, and now Shadowdancers in my campaign are the epitome of the spy organization. Hide in Plain Sight still bothers me, however. I just can't imagine the ability to suddenly disappear even though someone is actively watching you without resorting to an illusion or invisibility. I can envision Shadowdancers using a momentary distraction to use the ability, but I can't justify someone disappearing before a PC's very eyes.

A PrC that I dislike is the Dragon Disciple. I just didn't see the purpose for the class. I think it's mainly because we already have Half-Dragons, Dragonkin, and sorcerers (who may or may not have dragon blood), and adding a PrC to this mix takes away from the originality and mystery of the others. More of a personal nitpick than anything else, really.

I'm also not fond of prestige classes that grant an extra spellcasting level each level. I think that the combination of the special abilities granted plus the spell level makes this choice a no-brainer for players. I think that a PrC should force the players to make a choice: either gain these cool abilities as per the PrC, or take a level of wizard or rogue and gain the abilities for those.

 

[HellHound]

Honestly... a lot of reviewers seem to think that anything under 10 levels is only a half-done prestige class. I've had several complaints about there being 4 and 7 level classes in my products... never about the 10 and 12 level schematics though.

Personally, I agree that a lot of PrCs should be 5 level classes.

 

[rackabello]

put on yer dancin' shoes...

I like the Shadow Dancer, and have no problem with Hide in Plain Sight -- it's a supernatural ability, so it feels right to me that it should be uncanny and inexplicable.

To understand the Ghost Walker, think Clint Eastwood in Pale Rider. The last guy in the world you want to leave for dead.

Now, the Spell Dancer from Magic of Faerun seems pretty silly to me. Hard for me to picture some cat hoofin' it across the battlefield before unleashing the perfect metamagicked fireball.
Then again, a pair of Spell Dancers in tandem, let's call 'em F'der Estaria and Girgen Seorrg, there's one deadly and dashing couple...

 

[Furn_Darkside]

To understand the Ghost Walker, think Clint Eastwood in Pale Rider. The last guy in the world you want to leave for dead.

I prefer "Hang 'em High" for an example, but i agree and think it is a great PrC.

FD