D&D 5E Legal Ready action triggers and order of resolution

The examples weren't meant to have a serious explanation behind them; I just chose them to demonstrate various options available or not available.

You asked why would anyone do any of these things as they aren't efficient. And its true, they usually wouldn't be. They would generally come up in exceptional situations that were more plot related than combat oriented.


  • Why not just shoot the rogue instead of waiting for him to try to run? Maybe he is an important NPCs you hope will surrender.
  • Why not just cast Magic Missile on the caster instead of waiting for him to cast a spell? Maybe the party is in a fight with bandits and you know there is a caster, but not which one.. so you are hoping he'll cast a spell to identify himself.
  • Why wait to run through a door so you can't be targeted by a Lightning Bolt spell? Maybe you want to goad him into wasting the spell.
  • Why not have the goblins scatter on their turn instead of waiting for the dragon to try to breathe fire on them? Maybe the goblins are attempting to draw the dragon's attention away from a more critical target.

The point is these situations are generally exceptional; they don't come up too often, but when they DO its probably for a very important reason, either plot related or an attempt at a clever and dangerous tactic. So I wanted to know exactly what was legal and what wasn't so these climatic points in a battle are handled correctly.


  • A better trigger would have been "if he does anything but surrender, i'll shoot him". Either way, by reading your action, you are aware you are going to act AFTER he acts. That's the disadvantage you are giving yourself to be a "good" guy. You could always strike to inflict subduing damage, btw.
  • Then, it's also logical that by keeping attention to everyone, the spell from the bandit will go through before your MM are going to strike. Either way, you are acting after him.
  • Good! Because you know, it's not like he is looking at you stretching and putting your hands on the ground eyeing the exit during his turn, and prehaps think "hey, we have a runner, let's put a wall of fire instead" (obv joking)
  • It's not by having the goblins at the starting line of a running competition you are going to keep the dragon attention in a fight. Unless it's a hunting dragon. And then you would have its attention even running during your round.

Basically, in the end, while i totally agree with TallIan, the situation would NEVER come to pass to begin with, since "beginning" is not clear enough. When is "beginning" to cast a spell? When the caster opens his mouth? When he starts talking? When he reaches for his component pouch? All this actions are WAY clearer than "beginning to cast a spell", and all can be conveyed to an attentive player should the situation turn 180° - I could describe an archer pointing my player rogue an arrow that "the posture of and face of the archer reflect his nervousness. It's a spring ready to sprang at should you not follow his orders litterally." or " there's a bandit eyeing your group, paying close attention to your motions, and seems to be searching for something. It seems very interested in your wand, once he finds it hanging on your side" - Allowing the player to make decisions based on more informations - prehaps the wizard in will cast something without material components.

Either way, i would go VERY strict - no interruptions (it's not like an arrow that grazes me it's going to prevent me from extracting my weapon and attack) and no actions a player could take in its turn with 0 difference in effect. Also, meaningful explanation of trigger and action, with target definition, with a very high chance of a "why" being asked to clear any possible misunderstanding about intent.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

When is "beginning" to cast a spell? When the caster opens his mouth? When he starts talking? When he reaches for his component pouch?

This was addressed later in the discussion. The Dm could require the player to specify the exact action a wizard takes for the trigger like the ones you suggested. Perhaps a character with spell casting ability would be more apt at identifying spells cast. I would like to point out that Counterspell is a reaction and that it implies a character knows when an opponent is casting a spell.

Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell

As for the specific examples I'm not going to discuss them. They are tertiary to the discussion as they were written to demonstrate particular mechanics, not as the subject matter.

I apologize that you found them deficient. Perhaps you could come up with some better ones.
 
Last edited:

When is "beginning" to cast a spell? When the caster opens his mouth? When he starts talking? When he reaches for his component pouch? All this actions are WAY clearer than "beginning to cast a spell", and all can be conveyed to an attentive player should the situation turn 180° - I could describe an archer pointing my player rogue an arrow that "the posture of and face of the archer reflect his nervousness. It's a spring ready to sprang at should you not follow his orders litterally." or " there's a bandit eyeing your group, paying close attention to your motions, and seems to be searching for something. It seems very interested in your wand, once he finds it hanging on your side" - Allowing the player to make decisions based on more informations - prehaps the wizard in will cast something without material components.

How obvious is a Ready action is hard to tell. If for exemple you previously saw a spellcaster reaching into a component pouch to cast a spell, saying you do X when the spellcaster reach for it could be a trigger for exemple since it'd be a perceivable circumstance that can trigger your reaction. But how obvious that would be is not specified in the Ready action. If you take such Ready action, it wouldn't necessarily mean you're fixing his component pouch that would automatically reveal your intentions, especially if you try to hide them. It's be up to DM, he could determine it or ask for a Deception vs Insight contest etc..
 
Last edited:

The examples weren't meant to have a serious explanation behind them; I just chose them to demonstrate various options available or not available.

Sorry, my response came as a criticism of your examples (which it wasn't meant to be) and failed to make my point.

What I was getting at is that; from an action economy point of view, you would be better off simply using your action first since your action came up before the target. If you are trying to achieve anything else (ie capture a plot NPC) then your best option may be a delayed action but only if that delayed action does interrupt an action on behalf of the target, if it does not interrupt the action then what is the point of the delayed action. Since the scenario of "Don't move or I'll shoot." becomes useless, if there is any form of cover with (typically) 30 feet of the target.

Tall
 

This was addressed later in the discussion. The Dm could require the player to specify the exact action a wizard takes for the trigger like the ones you suggested. Perhaps a character with spell casting ability would be more apt at identifying spells cast. I would like to point out that Counterspell is a reaction and that it implies a character knows when an opponent is casting a spell.

Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell

As for the specific examples I'm not going to discuss them. They are tertiary to the discussion as they were written to demonstrate particular mechanics, not as the subject matter.

I apologize that you found them deficient. Perhaps you could come up with some better ones.

First: If that was the only part of Counterspell that interacted with spells, your reaction would go after the spell was cast and you would have countered nothing. Reactions do not automatically go before or during the action that triggers them, it has to specified, as is for AoO and Counterspell. Using Counterspell as an example is a bad example. Implying you know when someone is doing something does not equate to knowing when something "begins". Another bad comparison. Identifying a spell requires that the spell is already in course of action. The trigger "i bla bla if target begins casting 'this' spell" would be invalid. To know that the spell is 'this', you would already have gone over the beginning, experience or not.

And it's your duty to come up with examples that fit your idea, not mine. If you can't, prehaps it's because they would have no legs to stand on.

Second: You ask for "order of resolution" and if would be possible to have a readied action to interrupt a trigger. The answer from the PHB is never, since it states that your readied action goes after a trigger. The trigger can never be interrupted as it needs to come to pass. Now, you can be specific about your trigger, and have some sort of control of when your action actually comes to pass. This control usually breaks the intention of the player tho. "I do not want him to cast a spell" Though luck buddy, by the rules you can't, except for making your target unable to cast a spell via conditions or counter the spell via Counterspell. Reading an action does not make you able to do something that you would not be able to do on your turn as part of one of your actions.

How obvious is a Ready action is hard to tell. If for exemple you previously saw a spellcaster reaching into a component pouch to cast a spell, saying you do X when the spellcaster reach for it could be a trigger for exemple since it'd be a perceivable circumstance that can trigger your reaction. But how obvious that would be is not specified in the Ready action. If you take such Ready action, it wouldn't necessarily mean you're fixing his component pouch that would automatically reveal your intentions, especially if you try to hide them. It's be up to DM, he could determine it or ask for a Deception vs Insight contest etc..

The trigger and the readied actions are what you should check for "visibility" in describing what happens. Anyway, all those examples i mentioned i would NOT let pass since i would NOT let them happen, i would ask "what do you want to do" and state clearly that any readied action has to happen after a trigger has come to pass. They still want to shoot the bandit if he opens his mouth? Go ahead, roll immediatly, he has is mouth open to breath. Reaching for the pouch? You are quite confused to when he is about to do it... too much movement It seems like he is already reaching for it... wait... he was scratching. I suppose it was not clear enough in the second part of my previous post.
I believe in transparency in the game. Things happens, some might not be as they seem, but a good description has to include anything relevant to decision making. Even letting you smell something funny coming from a group of bandits that just came in the grotto would be ok in my games to let my players roll for perception/investigate to understand that there's a caster among them and have more informations about what's about to happen.

Hiding the readied action, the trigger and what not spirals down to overcomplication real fast, and that's something i do not want in my games, both as a DM or as a Player. You can be as realistic or as light-ruled as you want, as long as you have fun and your group is fine with it. A Deception vs insight would be fine, prehaps... but who rolls deception? The one that tries to hide his trigger for the readied action? The one that tries to hide the action they are doing to prevent being fired upon? Both? It's too much rolling and slowing down for me.
 

Ready action transparency will highly depend on how you interpret it for sure since it's not specifically written. If you interpret someone "ready to move back when X happen" to be crouched like Bruni Surin ready to run a race it will be obvious. If you interpret it as not specifically changing posture or anything it wouldn't necessarily be, like when you play tag and conceal intentions of your next move to evade pursuer if it comes for you....
 

This was addressed later in the discussion. The Dm could require the player to specify the exact action a wizard takes for the trigger like the ones you suggested. Perhaps a character with spell casting ability would be more apt at identifying spells cast. I would like to point out that Counterspell is a reaction and that it implies a character knows when an opponent is casting a spell.

Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell

As for the specific examples I'm not going to discuss them. They are tertiary to the discussion as they were written to demonstrate particular mechanics, not as the subject matter.

I apologize that you found them deficient. Perhaps you could come up with some better ones.


Counterspell actually adds fuel to the argument that Ready Action cannot interrupt certain actions. Counterspell is by RAW a specific rule which overrides the general one. What's more, even with that more specific rule, it has a failure chance. If you don't succeed at the DC, you failed to interrupt the spell. Spells take less time to cast than it takes to move 5 feet.
 

Okay in what context? Power? RAW? I view the word particular as being more exacting, since that's what particular means. In my view it wouldn't be okay with RAW, but I totally get that it's very open to interpretation like much of 5e. It may not be broken, but I do think it also violates what is intended by the ready action action.

I apologise for being unclear. I wasn't suggesting that it would be an allowed trigger; it doesn't satisfy anyone's definition of 'particular'.

What I was asking is, if it were allowed, would it break the game?

It wouldn't break it, but I don't think it's RAI or RAW.

There you go! :D
 

It's clear to me Counterspell, like an opportunity attack, are reactions specifically designed to interrupt their trigger, which Ready cannot do since it happen right after. But they all have a point in common; they use a reaction, which is an instant response to a trigger that can interrupts another creature’s turn. So while a Ready action cannot come before its trigger but after it finishes, it still has the ability to interrupt anything coming after being a reaction.


Reactions: Certain special abilities, spells, and situations allow you to take a special action called a reaction. A reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind, which can occur on your turn or on someone else’s. The opportunity attack, described later in this chapter, is the most common type of reaction.When you take a reaction, you can’t take another one until the start of your next turn. If the reaction interrupts another creature’s turn, that creature can continue its turn right after the reaction.
 

First: If that was the only part of Counterspell that interacted with spells, your reaction would go after the spell was cast and you would have countered nothing. Reactions do not automatically go before or during the action that triggers them, it has to specified, as is for AoO and Counterspell. Using Counterspell as an example is a bad example. Implying you know when someone is doing something does not equate to knowing when something "begins". Another bad comparison. Identifying a spell requires that the spell is already in course of action. The trigger "i bla bla if target begins casting 'this' spell" would be invalid. To know that the spell is 'this', you would already have gone over the beginning, experience or not.

Second: You ask for "order of resolution" and if would be possible to have a readied action to interrupt a trigger. The answer from the PHB is never, since it states that your readied action goes after a trigger. The trigger can never be interrupted as it needs to come to pass. Now, you can be specific about your trigger, and have some sort of control of when your action actually comes to pass. This control usually breaks the intention of the player tho. "I do not want him to cast a spell" Though luck buddy, by the rules you can't, except for making your target unable to cast a spell via conditions or counter the spell via Counterspell. Reading an action does not make you able to do something that you would not be able to do on your turn as part of one of your actions.

You misunderstand what counterspell's trigger is.

The trigger is not 'when the spell takes effect', and then it has a special rule which lets you go back in time to just before the spell comes into the world, as you seem to believe.

Spellcasting is a two part process: 'casting', which involves saying the magic words, making the mystic gestures, and/or providing the bat poop (otherwise known as the VSM components). If, and only if, all of these things are completed does the second part begin, which is 'the spell effect'. Until the VSM components are completed, the spell effect does not begin.

Therefore, we can define the VSM components as the trigger, not the spell effect. We know we can do this because counterspell demonstrates that we can. This is not a special rule; this is just the trigger. This trigger is as valid for any Readied action as it is for counterspell. The VSM components are perceivable, and although you cannot have your Readied action occur before its trigger, this trigger is before the spell effect begins.

If left alone, the sequence of events would be: VSM components -> spell effect.

If we were foolish enough to have the spell effect be the trigger, then the sequence would be: VSM components -> spell effect -> triggers Readied action/counterspell, and it would be too late and we'd already have a lightning bolt in the face.

But neither we nor counterspell are foolish enough to have the 'spell effect' as the trigger. We have the spellcasting process itself, the VSM components, as the trigger.

So the sequence of events is: VSM components -> triggers Readied action/counterspell -> spell effect (if still possible after Readied action/counterspell is complete).

The trigger and the readied actions are what you should check for "visibility" in describing what happens. Anyway, all those examples i mentioned i would NOT let pass since i would NOT let them happen, i would ask "what do you want to do" and state clearly that any readied action has to happen after a trigger has come to pass. They still want to shoot the bandit if he opens his mouth? Go ahead, roll immediatly, he has is mouth open to breath. Reaching for the pouch? You are quite confused to when he is about to do it... too much movement It seems like he is already reaching for it... wait... he was scratching. I suppose it was not clear enough in the second part of my previous post.

Police shootings are in the news right now. The police tell a guy to stop, freeze, don't do anything stupid, keep your hands where I can see them, etc. If the dude reaches into his pocket suddenly, he's going to get shot whether it was a gun or his ID.

That's what we're talking about here. You can certainly have a readied action like, 'if he goes for his knife', but that will be interpreted from your own point of view, and you may be wrong.

How it works is like this: you Ready an action to shoot the guy if he goes for his weapon. Fine.

The DM tells you that he is reaching into his jacket quickly. Do you shoot him?

As with any Readied action, when the trigger comes up you have a choice whether or not to execute that Readied action. Is he reaching for his gun? Or his ID? Or maybe a cigarette (told you those things will kill you!)?

Usually, in our D&D games it's not ambiguous. But if it is you could roll a contest; Insight versus Deception or Sleight of Hand. If you fail, you must choose whether or not to shoot even though you can't be sure.

Which is why most people don't make any sudden moves when covered by a gun! The risk/reward is 'getting my ID out a few seconds quicker' versus 'getting shot'!

This leads those with the gun to shoot, because no sane person would make a sudden move unless they were going for a weapon.

This is how the word 'perceivable' matters in terms of triggers. We are not claiming any precognition on the part of the Readier. The Readier simply chooses the trigger to be something like, 'if he draws a weapon', 'if he starts casting a spell', 'if he starts to move away from me' etc, as opposed to, 'when he shoots me', 'when he has completed casting and the spell is in effect', 'when he has moved out of reach'.
 

Remove ads

Top