Legends and Lore: Out of Bounds

[Mengu]

This article might apply to 4e, or 3e, or pretty much any rpg. DM presents problems, players find solutions. I don't see 4e as a system that does anything different in this regard. Seemingly impossible obstacles and fights, are all part of the game. You figure out a way to deal with it. Players are not, and have never been restricted to only actions on their character sheet.

The DM does have to be accommodating. For instance the player might say, "I want to jump down from the balcony, on top of the guard, and take him down." If the DM says, "no sorry, you don't have a 'jump from the balcony on top of the guard' power, you have to use your tide of iron or cleave," you're pretty much dead in the water.

On a side note, this sentence in the article made me blink: "You make sure that no choices are bad choices." 4e is so far from this paradigm, it would be humorous if it wasn't sad.

 

[DEFCON 1]

For me... like everything, my thoughts are all towards moderation. It's more fun for me if every situation is different and the methods for getting past challenges is as varied as the challenges themselves. Sometimes a hard-coded single solution that the DM knows and which the players have to figure out is good (most 'puzzles' would fall into this category.) Sometimes, the DM creates a scenario which a direction the players want to go in and the DM has some broad strokes planned out to help facilitate the player's journey along (most skill challenges would be like this.) And sometimes the DM can throw out a scenario where he has nothing in mind for a solution, because (assuming he is well-aware of the ingenuity of his players)... the players methodically trying to work out a solution ends up being cooler and more creative than he would have come up with, and thus once they start down a path, the DM can then go into 'Yes, And' mode and walk with them, pointing things out and throwing obstacles in the path based upon his own ideas of logic, the reality of the world, and what is on the other side of the challenge and how that would influence the steps the party is taking.

Needless to say... all three situations require a strong DM who knows when to give and take with the players-- giving hints or holding back info-- in order to keep frustration to a minimum but also giving a real sense of accomplishment when finally completed. By varying these scenarios up... it keeps the players and DM interested and entertained for the same reason why you change up the numbers and roles of monsters in combat encounters. You don't want to run 5 encounters in a row that consist of nothing but 2 Elite Lurkers... and by the same token, you don't want every puzzle or challenge to be solvable by a Level 3 Skill Challenge.

 

[delericho]

I disagree with this pretty strongly.

...

-KS

Apparently, I can't XP you again, but thanks for posting this - it solidified something that hadn't been sitting quite right with me.

Needless to say: I agree.

 

[the Jester]

My view is can be summed up as follows:

1. It must always, always, always be possible (I would go as far as to say probable - at least even odds) to overcome a challenge using the PCs' powers and abilities.

That's fine for certain playstyles, but absolutely off the table in a good sandbox.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

I disagree with this pretty strongly.

First, I don't think there's a problem with having a challenge in the gameworld that the PCs have no realistic chance of solving. For example, returning Athas to a world of life and greenery is a perfectly good character motivation, but I see no reason why such a task should be solvable at all, not to mention solvable with character abilities.

I think most everyone here is talking about challenges that are current and in front of the players. Returning Athas to greenery is not a challenge in that respect, just like saying "I want to advance the technology of the area and unlock nuclear power" in Eberron isn't really a current challenge. We're talking about things like the invisible wall, that are presently in front of players and need to be dealt with right now.

Second, there are tons of fun challenges that aren't amenable to character abilities. I think the plot to the latest Clash of the Titans is a perfectly plausible epic adventure. The whole point is that there's a monster that isn't realistically defeatably by even the most badass heroes. Instead, the PCs need to identify, find and acquire another element of epic magic in the world in order to defeat the otherwise unkillable monster. Obviously, the movie featured one particular solution, but it's a big mythical world out there -- who's to say there weren't others?

Actually, you could completely do this via character abilities...

Roll knowledge check to see what sorts of creatures could aid in defeating the Kraken. Success! Medusa's gaze can turn anything to stone!

Receive Magic Items/Divine Boons (depending on if we're a low magic campaign or not)

Use a ritual to find the location of Medusa.

Skill Challenge - Use Stealth, Acrobatics and Athletics to get close to Medusa. Failure! She's detected you, roll initiative!

Use a combination of various powers and abilities, including some magic item dailies, to defeat Medusa and take her head (which is a Story Item per MME).

Use the story item to defeat the Kraken! Gain 10,000XP!

Lastly, and most importantly, one of the primary joys of table-top gaming is seeing a situation where you have no idea what to do and then finding a way to advance the situation, hopefully for the better. If you check out the most popular story hours on this site, they are replete with challenges that require player thinking as much as character abilities. (Imagine all your PCs wake up with no memories as citizens of a city in a bottle.)

I've played games where it feels like you're just trying to guess what the GM (or module writer) is thinking, and I agree that it can suck. And I also agree that using your character abilities to kick ass and be awesome is a ton of fun. But I wouldn't want to play in a version of D&D where character abilities are the limit of what your character can do, or where player ingenuity doesn't play an essential role in the game.

-KS

You mention how games that break down into "Guess what the GM is thinking!" kinda suck, when that sort of situation is only created in an environment where the PC's can't solve things using their character sheets. Things like Story Items, needing the help of NPC's or the favor of the gods? These are ultimately still based in a character's sheet. Knowledge checks can reveal information about the Story Item you need, social skills can help you to enlist the aid of an NPC, and accomplishing quests (using your abilities) or using rituals can get you favor from the gods and other powerful beings.

It just takes creative adventure design to bring those things out and get the players to engage more than just "So what's the skill challenge?"... Ultimately though, when you go "Out of Bounds" it's going to cause problems though, because the PC's don't have a map anymore. That's when you're in danger of the guessing game.

 

[Dice4Hire]

I think all challenge should be solvable, but I see no reason they should be solvable right now with the resources the player's currently have. Maybe they need to get a scroll of a spell, or find out (research) a tidbit of information, forget some item like a key.

To me, those are all viable methods of playing.

In addition, I guess I am old school enough that I want player input to the challenge. I frequently put stuff that can be seen if the player posts looking there, instead of a general "I look at the room. Spot +4" One peeve I have with recent D&D editions.

Saying every challenge should be solvable right now with the resources the characters currently have with 50% or higher probablilty is not exactly how I would run it.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

For me, I think the thing I would like to be in my player's heads is: "The DM has given us no guarantee that there is an immediate solution (or even long-term solution) to this situation. This situation "could" be unsolvable."
In other words, there is not necessarily a key for every lock. There is mystery here and the requirement that the players invest themselves in the world and situations created.

I suppose in terms of an even bigger picture, what I would like to see driven out of the game is a certain unwarranted level of player entitlement that is almost hard-coded into the game. I don't want players to feel that there is a guaranteed solution to every problem. I don't want them to feel that their pre-determined "treasure packet" is just around the corner (and if not that corner then definitely the next one). I would like to see the game shift away from the spoon-fed wealth and expectations of the last two editions. I would like to see the game built on a foundation where success and rewards are "achieved" rather than pre-determined and evenly distributed by the DM.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Hussar]

The problem with "The DM has given us no guarantee that there is an immediate solution (or even long-term solution) to this situation. This situation "could" be unsolvable." is that the player never knows which situation it really is.

So, we spend hours and hours and hours going down the check list of possible solutions, each one failing because there is no solution possible.

To me, this just leads to very frustrating experiences and seriously bad feelings at the table.

Now, if you tell me, after a couple of tries, flat out, there is no solution to this, you need to do something else, I guess that would be fine, but, whatever the DM does, don't let the PC's screw around for hours trying to solve something with no solution.

 

[I'm A Banana]

First, I don't think there's a problem with having a challenge in the gameworld that the PCs have no realistic chance of solving. For example, returning Athas to a world of life and greenery is a perfectly good character motivation, but I see no reason why such a task should be solvable at all, not to mention solvable with character abilities.

I see one great reason why such a task should be solvable: to end the campaign.

If you go into a Dark Sun game knowing there's a finite limit on the time you spend in there, I see no problem at all with having the players accomplish "the impossible" by the time the campaign ends. They should be able and allowed to wreck the setting.

I don't see how, if it is something that the characters can accomplish, it's not something that is part of the character's abilities. There might be no Restore Athas spell, but if some epic-level endgame artifact enables the PC's to wish upon Rikus's Spear that all of Athas is returned to greenery, it's still part of the character's abilities. It might not be a trustworthy and reliable and repeatable character ability -- a one-off thing -- but it's certainly not player ability that restores Athas.

Second, there are tons of fun challenges that aren't amenable to character abilities. I think the plot to the latest Clash of the Titans is a perfectly plausible epic adventure. The whole point is that there's a monster that isn't realistically defeatably by even the most badass heroes. Instead, the PCs need to identify, find and acquire another element of epic magic in the world in order to defeat the otherwise unkillable monster. Obviously, the movie featured one particular solution, but it's a big mythical world out there -- who's to say there weren't others?

This is the basic Slay A Monster plotline from any horror or action movie, and it's directly amenable to character abilities: researching the artifact (discovery), journeying to the land where it lies (exploration), prying it from the jaws of monsters (combat), and finally convincing its guardian to hand it to you (interaction), so that you can use it to kill the monster (e.g.: use it as a character ability).

I don't understand how that's separate from character ability. It's not the players who overcome the challenges before them to gain the item and slay the beast, it's the characters.

Lastly, and most importantly, one of the primary joys of table-top gaming is seeing a situation where you have no idea what to do and then finding a way to advance the situation, hopefully for the better. If you check out the most popular story hours on this site, they are replete with challenges that require player thinking as much as character abilities. (Imagine all your PCs wake up with no memories as citizens of a city in a bottle.)

Sure, but the players are thinking about how to use their characters' abilities. If you see a fireproof dragon in front of you, you might use your character's ice abilities to kill it. If you see an impenetrable force field in front of you, you might use your character's exploration abilities to jump over it, burrow under it, or chisel through the walls around it, or their discovery abilities to analyze its magic and dispel it, or their social abilities to contact the wizard who made it and get him to remove it. The solution still lies within character abilities. Players are choosing how to apply those abilities, but the test isn't about the player's abilities any more than combat is a test of my buddy Frank's ability to accurately hit things with a sword.

 

[LostSoul]

Now, if you tell me, after a couple of tries, flat out, there is no solution to this, you need to do something else, I guess that would be fine, but, whatever the DM does, don't let the PC's screw around for hours trying to solve something with no solution.

One way to deal with this is to have multiple options for the PCs at any one time; you can let the players control the pacing of the game and decide what they want to do. If they want to spend hours, that's their choice.

If you start tracking their decision-making in real-time, you can spice it up with wandering monster checks. That would probably need to be a rule, though, so the players can make informed decisions.

I think there are better games than D&D to do the "problems that always have solutions" thing. Trail of Cthulhu jumps to mind.