Leisure Time: Orcs, Humans, Elves, Dwarves

[Chrisling]

Re: Re: Reichs Elves

Ack. That's a pretty depressing perspective. I'd prefer to think their long life spans give them sufficient time to become enlightened and develop compassion for all beings. I'd rather think long life meant more time to redeem yourself than more time to %&$# things up.

I think it's a valid perspective, myself. I mean, it <i>is</i> depressing, but I think it's quite possible. Given a thousand years of life, I would also like to think that people would become wise, enlightened beings interested in universal benevolence. On the other hand, I can just as easily see a person given a thousand years of life as having that much more time to consolidate power into their hands, addicts to their own sense of ambition.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

I think it's a valid perspective, myself. I mean, it <i>is</i> depressing, but I think it's quite possible. Given a thousand years of life, I would also like to think that people would become wise, enlightened beings interested in universal benevolence. On the other hand, I can just as easily see a person given a thousand years of life as having that much more time to consolidate power into their hands, addicts to their own sense of ambition.

Oh, there's no doubt it's a valid position. My academic ivory tower is still under construction, but it's complete enough to allow me to wallow in optimism about human nature every once in a while, though. <sigh>

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Health and Long Life, Bad?

Yea, one of the things that worries me about Exalted is that, sure, all the Solars are nice now, but what happens when they've lived a thousand year long life they weren't mentally prepared for and still have a thousand years to go?

Long life has always wigged me out. One thing I really admire Tolkien for is how soulfull he made it sound.

I always think that when Galadriel says, "There aren't many who now remember..." that that is a much more profound and sad statement than it would be for we temporal mortals.

I am sorry about the grimness of the comment, it certainly isn't the most obvious position for a Chaotic Good race to take.

At the time I thought of it, I was thinking a lot about Lee and how he was a good man who supported some irreconciliably evil ideas.

One thing bout long life though, the demi-humans would have to breed amazingly slowly to not have a growing population.

In human history, populations explode when people don't die fast enough rather than when there are many more being born.

And when there are a lot more young people than normal, bad things happen.

 

[Sulimo]

Elves don't work! They "pursue artistic interests".

And really, where do you think all those tales of elves stealing human children and replacing them with changelings come from? Elves need someone to do the dirty jobs, after all, and they will charm the poor humans until the humans believe they are being done a favor

Dwarven propaganda.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

To Jürgen,

Oh, heck, you could even have the angst, a la <I>Changeling: the Dreaming</i>. ;p

But, seriously, I'm trying to keep to the core books in these discussions for my information. I mean, sure, I could say "IMC, things are so-and-so" but that would be a lecture and not a discussion -- and I've already learned a lot, so I'm real pleased with the way things are going.

OK, let's say elves don't enslave humans - at least, not most of them.

But did you notice how elves always seem to be surrounded by sylvan creatures? Feys, plant beings like treants, and so on?

My theory would be that elves developed some kind of sybiotic (or parasitic) relationship with these beings - the elves provide protection (kind of like feudal rulers, really - and making war isn't the same as "real work", after all), and these other beings make life more comfortable for the elves - making and repairing their clothes, disposing of their waste in a nice-smelling way (ideal for plant beings) and so on.

If any kind of feudal lord can be "good", then elves can be as well.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Re: Re: Reichs Elves

Ack. That's a pretty depressing perspective. I'd prefer to think their long life spans give them sufficient time to become enlightened and develop compassion for all beings. I'd rather think long life meant more time to redeem yourself than more time to %&$# things up.

If all the elves automatically go to some mythical "land of the elven gods" unless they choose to worship Llolth, they would have no need to "redeem" themselves.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Re: Re: Reichs Elves

I'm pulling you in because, uh, my girlfriend is having a tough semester studying physics stuff so she's got a lot of homework to do. So, rather than pester her (thus interrupting her homework) I get online and pester <i>you</i>, apparently. That's the reason.

Heh. Good for her - I can understand exactly what she is going through. Fortunately, I recently got my diploma in physics...

 

[Chrisling]

OK, let's say elves don't enslave humans - at least, not most of them.

But did you notice how elves always seem to be surrounded by sylvan creatures? Feys, plant beings like treants, and so on?

My theory would be that elves developed some kind of sybiotic (or parasitic) relationship with these beings - the elves provide protection (kind of like feudal rulers, really - and making war isn't the same as "real work", after all), and these other beings make life more comfortable for the elves - making and repairing their clothes, disposing of their waste in a nice-smelling way (ideal for plant beings) and so on.

If any kind of feudal lord can be "good", then elves can be as well.

In most games elves are interpreted, yes, as having this profound connection with nature and the fey. And, sure, what you say is completely <i>possible</i>, tho' the whole changeling bit thrills me no end.

But, yeah, sure, it is possible to construct a model of the world in which elves are everything any DM wants to make them. But it's equally easy to construct a model where the elves are out there, on their own, trying to make it in a world that is pretty hostile.

For example, if I was some treant, why would I accept a <i>subservient</i> position to an elf? The average treant can pretty easily wipe an elvish village from the map. The treant is smarter, wiser, more charismatic, tough, and in pretty much all ways better than the elves you'd have them serve. The same is roughly true of dryads. The average dryad wouldn't serve the elves, the elves would serve the dryads -- enraptured by her awesome charisma.

And what if there <i>is</i> an unseelie fey world out there, who would just <i>love</i> to enslave the whole elvish race. They would be massively aided if the fey were already in bed with the elves.

 

[Jeph]

In my view, dwarves not only *should be* the most advanced race, but *are.* Why should they be? Superhigh metabolism, the drive to work hard, naturrally wanting items (gems, gold) that require work to get, a society that is well-coordinated and cooperative . . . the list goes on.

Why do I think they're so super-advanced? Their machines. Any good GM won't just have Dwarves nicking away at diamonds with copper and flint shards. No, they like to have really really BIG drills, steam-powered excavaters, giant booring devices--the dwarves have the tech, and the time to get more tech, and the drive to get more tech, and the ability to get even more tech.

So while all the races are prancing around weaving fog clouds and developing fireballs, the dwarves allready have an adding machine. By the time the other races have an adding machine, dwarves have a supercomputer and nuclear missiles. By the time other races have nuclear missiles, the dwarves colonized the next planet over.

Just my (USD) $0.02, exact change only, please.

-Jeph

 

[Chrisling]

Jeph has a good point. Dwarves might be culturally dull, but they're generally regarded as absurdly hard working and given to tremendous cooperation.

But, being in a deconstructionist mood, I feel obliged to point a few things out.

Dwarves live in an extremely hostile environment: underground. A lot of their labor is always going to chipping at stone. So, when a human is done building their house and living in it, the dwarf is still carving that room.

Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, culture does matter. Because dwarven culture is all stonecutting and metal working, what happens when the dwarves meet a society whose tongues have been sharpened by centuries of debate and brutal political infighting? Might as well hand those Machiavelli trained politicians the keys to the mine . . . .