Geoff Watson
First Post
Col_Pladoh said:
To me, this is a sign of a bad DM. Changing the rules on the fly to screw over a player's careful plan is a sign of a ******* control freak, not a good DM.
Geoff.
Lejendary Adventures - Anyone played it?
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To me, this is a sign of a bad DM. Changing the rules on the fly to screw over a player's careful plan is a sign of a ******* control freak, not a good DM.
Geoff.
Yes Geoff, the other systems had AoO's, Flanking and Charging. The key word you use is "miscellaneous". They were not the 'standard', and the game played fine without them if you didn't use them. Anyone that plays 3E expects to get all of the bonuses. Now they are so important to 3E that you will break the game if you don't use them.
Look at the list I made again.
1) Base Attack Bonus
2) Ability Modifier
3) Size Modifier
4) Class Ability
5) 1-3 Feats
6) Magic Enhancement
7) AoO's
8) Flanking
9) Charging
Add 10) Multiple Attack with another set of bonuses
You easily have a dozen modifiers that can be applied to one Full Round attack action. (I will leave Two-Weapon Fighting out of this.)
I am not trying to say it is not playable. I am not trying to say that it is not fun. While I might be mistaken on the details, I am right when I say that 3E is rules-heavy.
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Geoff Watson
First Post
tieranwyl said:
I don't get it.
Previous editions had just as many modifiers. The only one that is in 3e that isn't in previous editions is Size modifer, which is included in all the monsters stat blocks so it shouldn't be a problem.
Some of the modifers had different names (eg Feats were Fighting Style Specialisations, or Weapon of Choice, etc), but they were there.
Is the Size modifier really enough difference to call 3e rules-heavy and the other D&D editions rules-light?
Geoff.
Re
The first point I can sort of understand. Players might argue with a DM who wished to throw some flavor in the game by having the players track down some strange component. (not my players, mind you). But, there is nothing preventing a DM from choosing to alter the Item Creation rules.
Point two I completely do not accept. If I tried to do what feats do in a first or second edition D&D game, I would not even have been given the option. Feats and skills expand options, not limit them.
For example, If I had told the DM in a 1st edition game that I wanted my character to be able to slice through an extra person (aka Cleave feat), they would have said no, can't do it. In 3rd edition, I am allowed to flesh out my character in a way as to give that character some unique abilities with a game effect.
Feats are in no way limiting. Look at the Netbook of Feats and tell me that 3rd edition doesn't expand upon creativity and imagination rather than limit it?
Feats and skills do not hurt the game at all. They merely expand options and give additional guidelines. Or can you show me where it says that any of the rules in D&D are anything other than guidlines even in 3rd edition? See the House Rules forum. Plenty people have been using house rules and their own guidelines for their campaigns.
Rule 0, a rule Gary Gygax himself believes in, where the DM is the final arbiter, has not changed in 3rd edition D&D. The game is still all guidelines. They just give you additional guidelines for additional situations and a skill system.
Let's be honest. Players have been asking for a skill system for D&D for years. The lack of skills was a shortcoming of past editions of D&D, not a plus. Non-weapon proficiencies was a less efficient system of emulating skills than current D&D.
The first point I can sort of understand. Players might argue with a DM who wished to throw some flavor in the game by having the players track down some strange component. (not my players, mind you). But, there is nothing preventing a DM from choosing to alter the Item Creation rules.
Point two I completely do not accept. If I tried to do what feats do in a first or second edition D&D game, I would not even have been given the option. Feats and skills expand options, not limit them.
For example, If I had told the DM in a 1st edition game that I wanted my character to be able to slice through an extra person (aka Cleave feat), they would have said no, can't do it. In 3rd edition, I am allowed to flesh out my character in a way as to give that character some unique abilities with a game effect.
Feats are in no way limiting. Look at the Netbook of Feats and tell me that 3rd edition doesn't expand upon creativity and imagination rather than limit it?
Feats and skills do not hurt the game at all. They merely expand options and give additional guidelines. Or can you show me where it says that any of the rules in D&D are anything other than guidlines even in 3rd edition? See the House Rules forum. Plenty people have been using house rules and their own guidelines for their campaigns.
Rule 0, a rule Gary Gygax himself believes in, where the DM is the final arbiter, has not changed in 3rd edition D&D. The game is still all guidelines. They just give you additional guidelines for additional situations and a skill system.
Let's be honest. Players have been asking for a skill system for D&D for years. The lack of skills was a shortcoming of past editions of D&D, not a plus. Non-weapon proficiencies was a less efficient system of emulating skills than current D&D.
Re
Gary,
I didn't pipe in on the other threads, but I would just like to say: Thanks for creating D&D.
I have been playing this game for over 20 years now, since I was a child. I have greatly enjoyed it.
It has kept my mind active and my imagination fertile. I have met many friends through gaming that I still know today. We still love to play D&D and were all in our 30's now.
I still remember the days when your name was on most of my gaming books and many of my favorite modules. It is a great thing that you invented, and I am happier for having played D&D.
Kudos. I hope the LA game is successful venture for you. I may give it a shot after I take a look at it in my local gaming store.
Gary,
I didn't pipe in on the other threads, but I would just like to say: Thanks for creating D&D.
I have been playing this game for over 20 years now, since I was a child. I have greatly enjoyed it.
It has kept my mind active and my imagination fertile. I have met many friends through gaming that I still know today. We still love to play D&D and were all in our 30's now.
I still remember the days when your name was on most of my gaming books and many of my favorite modules. It is a great thing that you invented, and I am happier for having played D&D.
Kudos. I hope the LA game is successful venture for you. I may give it a shot after I take a look at it in my local gaming store.
...and I certainly hope that no one got the idea that I meant that they were any less innovative or imaginative.... my comment was that, "If you like to know precisely whats going to happen when you take an action, this game is not for you."
There are a lot of VERY popular games that work this way, Diablo, Baldurs Gate, etc. - and hey, all of those players must like what they are playing... but as I also mentioned, I'm a first edition fan, so I like LA. If there is no need for interpretation, however, do you really need a GM? I'd just let everyone play and keep score on the side. IOW, LA is poorly designed for solo play, it DOES require input from a GM.
As a GM... I like this. When you adventure in MY world, it lets me put MY stamp upon that world.
Update on the Quickstart download: we are tweaking a few minor details, but I expect to have the revised final edition ready Monday night. I truly need to get it out before next Friday (this coming Friday) as our offices will be closed the following week while we're at the big Las Vegas show (true torture... sigh).
So please, stay tuned.
There are a lot of VERY popular games that work this way, Diablo, Baldurs Gate, etc. - and hey, all of those players must like what they are playing... but as I also mentioned, I'm a first edition fan, so I like LA. If there is no need for interpretation, however, do you really need a GM? I'd just let everyone play and keep score on the side. IOW, LA is poorly designed for solo play, it DOES require input from a GM.
As a GM... I like this. When you adventure in MY world, it lets me put MY stamp upon that world.
Update on the Quickstart download: we are tweaking a few minor details, but I expect to have the revised final edition ready Monday night. I truly need to get it out before next Friday (this coming Friday) as our offices will be closed the following week while we're at the big Las Vegas show (true torture... sigh).
So please, stay tuned.
Re
Chris,
Are you honestly trying to say that 3rd edition doesn't need a DM? That is an absurd idea to even imply.
No one here is listing specific in-game reasons why 3rd edition lacks imagination.
I am left to assume that because a person can make a Jump skill check or a Trip attack, and there are rules to arbitrate such a situation, that you feel the imagination is hurt.
I can give you an in-game example of how I use the rules.
Cyrex, my character, leaps across the small river through the duergar warrior standing in his path. He brings down his axe on the duergar warrior behind the one he leapt through.
The Rules used were: Overrun rules (a simple strength check), Jump Skill (another simple strength check) and then an attack roll.
That is two strength checks and an attack roll. Not too many rules in my opinion.
How would the DM in LA handle leaping over a small river, while knocking down a duergar standing on the other side, and attacking the duergar behind the first one that I knocked over?
It just helps the DM to arbitrate situations the Player comes up with rather than simply assuming said player is successful. I don't see how the rules prevent creativity.
If anything, the 3rd edition rules make the players think about what they are doing even more. More options creates more creativity, not less. I have more players doing fantastic things than I ever did before and thinking more about what kind of character they want to play.
3rd edition is the best edition of D&D I have yet played. It really provides more options for both DM's and players.
Chris,
Are you honestly trying to say that 3rd edition doesn't need a DM? That is an absurd idea to even imply.
No one here is listing specific in-game reasons why 3rd edition lacks imagination.
I am left to assume that because a person can make a Jump skill check or a Trip attack, and there are rules to arbitrate such a situation, that you feel the imagination is hurt.
I can give you an in-game example of how I use the rules.
Cyrex, my character, leaps across the small river through the duergar warrior standing in his path. He brings down his axe on the duergar warrior behind the one he leapt through.
The Rules used were: Overrun rules (a simple strength check), Jump Skill (another simple strength check) and then an attack roll.
That is two strength checks and an attack roll. Not too many rules in my opinion.
How would the DM in LA handle leaping over a small river, while knocking down a duergar standing on the other side, and attacking the duergar behind the first one that I knocked over?
It just helps the DM to arbitrate situations the Player comes up with rather than simply assuming said player is successful. I don't see how the rules prevent creativity.
If anything, the 3rd edition rules make the players think about what they are doing even more. More options creates more creativity, not less. I have more players doing fantastic things than I ever did before and thinking more about what kind of character they want to play.
3rd edition is the best edition of D&D I have yet played. It really provides more options for both DM's and players.
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cimerians
First Post
adventures
I don't think anyone mentioned it but in case there is interest in LA, there are adventure "modules" in case the LM has no time to prepare an adventure himself:
check
hekaforge.com
and
lejendary.com
for more info. 'The Hermit I have not played but sounds very interesting and 'The Lejendary Road' is a nice starter adventure...
I don't think anyone mentioned it but in case there is interest in LA, there are adventure "modules" in case the LM has no time to prepare an adventure himself:
check
hekaforge.com
and
lejendary.com
for more info. 'The Hermit I have not played but sounds very interesting and 'The Lejendary Road' is a nice starter adventure...
Col_Pladoh
Gary Gygax
Re: Re
Likely most LMs would simply have the player explain the action, then ajudicate from logic. However, the rules allow any Avatar a standing jump of 3', running 9', less 10% for each 20# of weight carried, +10 per 10 points score in any of 12 Abilities.
Assuming the jump made it, then the Avatar would be "leaping to overbear," and a successful roll against Precision Base Rating would indicate the opponent was knocked back.
That would not necessarily mean an automatic attack on the opponent standing behind the one knocjed back. Indeed, if the second one was close to the first, he too might be thrown backwards by the force of the impact. In that case the attacking Avatar could strike at either opponent with a situation bonus of 10 (to attack score). Otherwise, he could strike the downed opponent thus or else attack the second, standing, one at normal chance.
Cheers,
Gary
Celtavian said:
Likely most LMs would simply have the player explain the action, then ajudicate from logic. However, the rules allow any Avatar a standing jump of 3', running 9', less 10% for each 20# of weight carried, +10 per 10 points score in any of 12 Abilities.
Assuming the jump made it, then the Avatar would be "leaping to overbear," and a successful roll against Precision Base Rating would indicate the opponent was knocked back.
That would not necessarily mean an automatic attack on the opponent standing behind the one knocjed back. Indeed, if the second one was close to the first, he too might be thrown backwards by the force of the impact. In that case the attacking Avatar could strike at either opponent with a situation bonus of 10 (to attack score). Otherwise, he could strike the downed opponent thus or else attack the second, standing, one at normal chance.
Cheers,
Gary
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