D&D 5E Let us "fix" Expertise!

[Slit518]

As we know Expertise in 5th edition is double your Proficiency bonus.

Normal Proficiency is from 2 to 6, while Expertise is from 4 to 12.

Expertise messes with the Bounded Accuracy a bit, but, can always be adjusted if the DM is so inclined. But that is another subject.

What are some ways to "fix" Expertise?

1. Get rid of it all together?
2. Roll a 1d4 with all Checks that have Expertise?
3. A flat bonus or +2, for example?
4. Advantage on all Checks that have Expertise?
5. Advantage that can be used Once a Short Rest on all Checks that have Expertise per Skill?
6. Advantage that can be used a number of times equal to your Proficiency modifier on all Checks that have Expertise per Skill?
7. Some other idea?

 

[Stalker0]

Probably the most "5e" way to do it is to provide advantage all the time. Again, greatly increases consistency without a true increase in power.

Now personally that is actually a decent nerf, advantage is not that hard to get on skills when you need it a good portion of the time, so there are many cases where expertise would become superfluous. But hey, having something on all the time is always cool, so that is a factor.

 

[Dausuul]

What are some ways to "fix" Expertise?

Expertise is just a mechanic. "Fixing" implies a problem. What is the problem you want to fix?

 

[aco175]

A smart bonus is likely best. A rogue with expertise in stealth gets +2 instead of double helps at low level, but is not that big at higher levels. Problems are DCs are higher at higher level whether the DM makes things tougher on purpose or not. This can/should be countered with having a greater chance to overcome it and the fun factor of being a high level PC and being able to do cool things.

Example of the rogue with expertise in stealth at low level being good and then at high level not having the extra 6 points and having only 2. Would the DC stay at 20 for something hard of would the DM challenge them and set the DC at 25 since they are high level and the guard is not a mook, but the elite king's guard with better perception. Maybe an opposed check is not the best example, but you get the idea.

Another idea is like what @Stalker0 is saying in that advantage is basically a +5 bonus and do away with the prof bonus. You could limit that to a number of times per day or leave it all the time.

 

[Stalker0]

Problems are DCs are higher at higher level whether the DM makes things tougher on purpose or not.

This is actually one of the recommendations of 5e.... that skill DCs really should not be going up at higher levels. DC 15s and 20s shouldn't become 25s and 30s at high level.

 

[billd91]

Probably the most "5e" way to do it is to provide advantage all the time. Again, greatly increases consistency without a true increase in power.

Now personally that is actually a decent nerf, advantage is not that hard to get on skills when you need it a good portion of the time, so there are many cases where expertise would become superfluous. But hey, having something on all the time is always cool, so that is a factor.

I think part of the point of expertise is to have some true increase in power. Reliable Talent comes along later to increase consistency.
I'm not really convinced a change is necessary, but one way of doing so that might be a good 5e-esque alternative would be to pick skills that would receive +1d4 on their checks, somewhat akin to Guidance, rather than doubling the proficiency bonus.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

Is Expertise propagating in an uncontrolled manner?

I believe the closing words of The Price is Right used to suggest a solution to this.

 

[Mort]

Is Expertise propagating in an uncontrolled manner?

I believe the closing words of The Price is Right used to suggest a solution to this.

Please spay or neuter your pets?

Well that's a solution!

Too many rogues and bards out there as it is!

 

[Stalker0]

I think part of the point of expertise is to have some true increase in power. Reliable Talent comes along later to increase consistency.
I'm not really convinced a change is necessary, but one way of doing so that might be a good 5e-esque alternative would be to pick skills that would receive +1d4 on their checks, somewhat akin to Guidance, rather than doubling the proficiency bonus.

Yeah to be clear, I think expertise is just fine, I really don't see the problem myself.

My only issues are various items that give like a +5 bonus. Those are broken, but magic items are optional for a reason, they are buyer beware.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

What exactly is the problem with expertise?
That the rogue very seldom fails? That his ability to sneak is extremely reliable?

Actuall I think reliable talent is a bigger problem. Together with expertise it makes the game less fun. +17 max from attribute + expertise is still within the bounds (you can roll as low as 18, which can be beat by someone who has no proficiency and an 8 in the relevant attribute).