D&D 5E Let us "fix" Expertise!

[ECMO3]

I think the problem with this analogy is that you feel like drivers are constantly making checks to drive from A to B. The typical driver probably isn't making checks day to day, rather they make the check when something unexpected happens, like when another driver pulls out in front of them unexpectedly.

I disagree with that. It is probably a DC3 to drive down a residential street without hitting anything.

So for a young adult "proficient" in driving it is an automatic success, a guy who is 90 with catarax and a 5 dexterity is going to occasionally hit something even though he probably has expertise. IRL the first time I put my son behind the wheel at 15 years old he crashed into my front porch.

 

[ECMO3]

It means the rogue always rolls at least a 23 at that time for sneaking... That is way overkill in most cases.

Well considering he can't hide unless he is fully obscured I do not think it is overkill.

If you are talking about using stealth for something other than hiding, a 23 does not mean automatic success, it means automatic success at hard things and I don't think this is out of line considering you are talking about someone who is world class at that. Something impossible is still impossible so I don't get the problem.

 

[Stalker0]

That is true for straight DCs, but it is NOT true for contested checks.

For example, Stealth is a contested check and higher CR monsters have a higher proficiency bonus, genrally a higher wisdom and therefore a higher perception. This means stealth checks as a general rule are going to be more difficult against higher level monsters. Same is true for grapple checks, or insight, deception or really anything that is contested.

Now if you are using a stealth cehck to see if the character can walk across an empty library where the floor is covered in dust without leaving any footprints; sure that should be the same DC at 1st level as it is at 20th level.

I again must disagree. Many monsters do not get proficiency bonuses to many skills. Athletics is a common one, I had a grapple barb that could grab all sorts of things because they didn’t have proficiency, perception is the same.

now you are correct thst when a monster does have the skill, the modifier is higher than at low levels, but taken as a whole a lot of difficulties really don’t change much all said and done

 

[cbwjm]

I disagree with that. It is probably a DC3 to drive down a residential street without hitting anything.

So for a young adult "proficient" in driving it is an automatic success, a guy who is 90 with catarax and a 5 dexterity is going to occasionally hit something even though he probably has expertise. IRL the first time I put my son behind the wheel at 15 years old he crashed into my front porch.

Sure, people learning to drive (and not yet proficient) or people who are now aged and impaired might be rolling checks more often, but even then, when they get rolling (I mean get underway in the car, not "rolling") under conditions where they aren't under any stress, they probably aren't rolling a skill check.

As for expertise, that old 90 year old probably doesn't have it if he is a standard driver. If he was some professional race car or stunt car driver then yeah, he might have expertise.

 

[Stalker0]

I disagree with that. It is probably a DC3 to drive down a residential street without hitting anything.

So for a young adult "proficient" in driving it is an automatic success, a guy who is 90 with catarax and a 5 dexterity is going to occasionally hit something even though he probably has expertise. IRL the first time I put my son behind the wheel at 15 years old he crashed into my front porch.

You are forgetting one of the most important rules of skill checks, as important as it as often invisible.

a skill check only occurs when a dm wishes it to occur.

the dc of your daily commute is not a 0, 3, 5, or 20…it’s non existent, because the story doesn’t care about your daily commute, so there’s no check you just do it.

if I ask a blacksmith to make a sword…they just make a sword….because they are a blacksmith and that’s what they do.

trying to put dcs to mundane nigh automatic things is a fallacy, because we just assume they happen automatically every time until the dm wants to shake it up.

 

[Mordhau]

A +3 Bonus. Call it "Skill Focus".

Honestly, there's no reason why it should scale. It's just silly and confuses the maths.

 

[Mordhau]

Nope, can't agree. From where I'm standing, proficiency and expertise bonuses on skill checks are too small. Way, way too small.

Imagine a person who's never driven a car, never taken driver's ed, no training at all. Take that person, plunk them behind the wheel, show them the pedals to make it go, and send them down the interstate. What are the chances that they reach their destination without a wreck? If you put that chance at 50%, you're more optimistic than I am.

Now, take a typical driver--not a race car driver or a long-haul trucker, just Joe Average Commuter--and send them down the interstate. What are the chances that that person makes it safely? If you say 95%, you are asserting that the typical commuter (two trips per day, 5 days a week) wrecks their car twice a month! I'd hate to see insurance premiums on the D&D highway system.

But think about what this means in terms of the d20 scale: If the average trained driver has a 95% chance to make a check that the average untrained driver fails 50% of the time, that implies a proficiency bonus of +9. That's just proficiency, not even expertise (expertise would be a professional driver of some kind).

Proficiency bonuses in D&D are laughably tiny. And yet people keep complaining and wanting them to be even smaller! Bounded accuracy is designed for combat, where the attack roll is just one component of a much larger system. It makes no sense for skills.

You're right. But it's really difficult to fix this without some kind of a bell curve. Increasing Bonuses just leads to high DCs. (Although the difference between being trained and untrained could be higher than that between a high and low ability score - proficiency was a flat +5 in 4e which worked better).

If I was designing from scratch I'd probably use the advantage mechanic for proficiency and Boons and Banes (+/- 1d6) from Shadow of a Demon Lord for Advantage/Disadvantage.

Or have some kind of a metacurrency that can be used for skills.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

In 3.5 I really liked the take 10 and take 20 rules.
Used correctly they simulated many situations well:

DC 25? No problem.

Expert:
I just work at normal speed (20 rounds per action). I am no hero, I don't have to rush things. My +5 bonus is good enough.

Hero:
I am really good at things. Maybe I am a rogue and have reliable talent. I just take 10 and my +15 bonus will do the job.

Stressful situation:
Ok, lets roll. Maybe I fail, maybe not.

DC 15?

Expert:
No problem. No stress. I take 10.

Hero:
Easy. I can't fail except when I am under stress and roll a 1.


You can't transfer it 1 on 1 to 5e. But a mixture of auto success and passive checks can work.
But my feeling is that this could use an overhaul in 5.5.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

Just like to re-iterate what @Stalker0 said above: any "normal, every day task" doesn't even require a roll. Hell, even some "stressful" situations might not require a roll (e.g. a friendly game of darts at the tavern...whomever is better can be assumed to win most of the time; no need for the Players and DM to roll dozens of d20's for every throw, or even once per game).

So "needing high/low DC's" isn't all that necessary as most characters will auto-succeed most of the time...they fail if they need to make a check and roll poorly. That's when the PC's with bonuses make a difference.

The trick isn't to "increase DC's" or to increase/decrease a PC's/NPC's bonus/penalty. The trick is to not let them escalate their Ability Scores and Skills and all those extra "Options" in the first place.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Horwath]

there is no problem with expertise, however there is still problem with low d20 rolls on things you should be good at.
Rogues reliable talent should be global benefit with proficiency and expertise, but at a reduced effect:

with proficiency you treat d20 skill roll below 5 as 5,
with expertise you treat d20 skill roll below 8 as 8,
reliable talent and proficiency treats every roll below 10 as 10.
reliable talent and expertise treats every roll below 12 as 12.

this way you prevent failing at easy tasks, but still keeps max roll equally out of(or in) reach as currently.