D&D General Lethality, AD&D, and 5e: Looking Back at the Deadliest Edition

That's utterly ludicrous. Did anyone actually play this way?
Hello. Anyone using that item saving throw chart does. We have. For almost 40 years now. Played with a bunch of people over the years and it was never a surprise to nor a problem for any of them.
Who in their right mind would ever carry potions in glass bottles? What's wrong with metal flasks? Or a bag of holding? After all, you need to destroy the bag before you can destroy the contents.
Potions come in glass bottles. But if the PCs want to swap those out and/or drop them in an extra-dimensional space, cool. Go for it.
Stories like this just remind me of why I don't play AD&D anymore. Yeesh, that sounds like the complete opposite of anything remotely close to fun. Yay, you have a couple of potions. Poof, now you don't. What? The game doesn't have anything like hit locations or any actual ability to damage items, but, now, I'm going to randomly assign that ability to random monsters?
The game explicitly does have the ability to damage items. I quoted the page and some text. There’s a whole section on just that. It specifically calls out being hit by ogres and giants as giving glass a bad time. Being hit with disintegrate is even worse. That’s properly nasty. 1 or 2-in-20 chance of any item surviving.
Hey, that sounds like a blast. "Uprooted tree"? How big do you think a 1e giant is? An ogre isn't even stronger than a human. Strong human, sure, but, still not stronger than a human. Does my fighter get a chance to destroy all the baddie's items with every attack I make?
The rules of the game specifically call out hits from ogres and giants as having this effect. Sorry that bugs you so much. It is a blast to play AD&D as a resource management game.
 

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Hello. Anyone using that item saving throw chart does. We have. For almost 40 years now. Played with a bunch of people over the years and it was never a surprise to nor a problem for any of them.
No, not "anyone." It's why I and others have questioned it here because, in 40 years, I've never, ever heard this before. So, interested, I actually dug out my old DMG and looked up the page. And, oh look, we have some creative quoting going on. Because, yes, the part you quoted is there. But, you kinda left out the important bit:

AD&D DMG Page 80 said:
Magical Items: Magical items gain +2 on all rolls, plus +1 for each plus they have above +1... Furthermore, the magic item gains +5 on saving throws against attack forms in its own mode, i.e. blow vs shield, fireball vs ring of fire resistance or fireball wand.

Non-magical items: Those items which do not exactly conform to the descriptions above can be interpolated. It is assumed that the item in question is actually exposed to the form of attack, i.e. the blow falls on the item, the fall is such as to not cushion the item, the fire actually contacts the item, etc. As with magical items, non-magical items gain +5 versus attacks in their own mode.

Now, since AD&D does not have hit location tables, how did you deduce that the ogre's attack hit my backpack? After all, that attack must actually be exposed to the form of attack after all.

Again, this is why I absolutely hate these conversations. Selective quotes and selective memory. First it was about fighters being able to use all weapons, now it's ogres that always hit your backpack with every attack. :erm:
 

Potions come in glass bottles. But if the PCs want to swap those out and/or drop them in an extra-dimensional space, cool. Go for it.
Oh, and since we're quoting the rules here, let's examine this one too shall we?

AD&D DMG Page 125 said:
Potions (III.A.) Potions are typically found in ceramic, crystal or metal flasks in...

Huh, funny how things always seem to change as soon as we actually start opening the books.
 


yeah I want to know that one.

Hit by an ogre?????? Pretty sure that's not in the rules unless you're talking magical furniture or the ogre has some special magic item. That's a table that wouldn't have kept players long in my circles.
1e DMG page 80

"Blow, Crushing: This assumes that the item is struck by a weighty falling object or a blow from an ogre's or giant's weapon, for example. Another example would be a (ceramic) flask of oil or a (crystal or glass) vial of holy water hurled against a hard surface ar dropped from a height. A piece of cloth can be ripped or tarn by a crushing blow."
 

Then Gary would have said so. He did not. Note how none of the listed methods guarantee any given numbers. We know Gary knew his numbers and probabilities as he gives a detailed breakdown of various dice and their probabilities. So if Gary wanted at least two 15s he could have listed that in the DMG…and yet he did not.
1e PHB page 9

"Furthermore, it is usually essential to the character's survival to be exceptional (with a rating of 15 or above) in no fewer than two ability characteristics."
 

Yes. That’s if the ogre attacked the bottle directly.

Would you seriously make a character make item saving throws for every item after every successful attack?
No. It is not for direct attacks, but explicitly is for when the attack contacts the item, even accidentally.

"It is assumed that the item in question is actually exposed to the form of attack, i.e. the blow falls on the item, the fall is such as to not cushion the item, the fire actually contacts the item, etc."

An ogre attack for instance can be assumed to have contacted the armor, forcing a save. Or shield. Or if you are running away, your pack and everything in it.
 

No. It is not for direct attacks, but explicitly is for when the attack contacts the item, even accidentally.

"It is assumed that the item in question is actually exposed to the form of attack, i.e. the blow falls on the item, the fall is such as to not cushion the item, the fire actually contacts the item, etc."

An ogre attack for instance can be assumed to have contacted the armor, forcing a save. Or shield. Or if you are running away, your pack and everything in it.
Really?

Show me anywhere where you can "assume" that an ogre's attack hit your armor. Or your shield.

Sure, if the ogre is trying to break a glass bottle, fair enough. But, you're seriously suggesting that you make your players do item saving throws from every single successful attack from anything with the strength of an ogre (ie. a very strong human)? And you determine the location of that attack how? And not a single player has ever called shenanigans on this?

And, presumably, you'd force a saving throw from every monster being attacked by a fighter with a girdle of giant strength, right? I shatter that anti-paladin's armor with a single blow? After all, I'm going to be hitting an awful lot of times.

But, I must admit, I'm really curious how you determine hit locations. What rule is that?
 

Again, I have to say, this is why I get so annoyed with these conversations.

I've been very, very careful, all the way along to be absolutely clear that I'm only talking about my own table and my own experience. I am in no way claiming that the way I played is in any way the "right" way or anything like that.

Yet, both @Maxperson and @overgeeked have tried quoting the rules at me over something that I've never heard even suggested in the past. Now, if that's the way it worked at your table? Fantastic. Whatever works. But, these attempts to claim that this is the "right and true" way to play the game, "Hello. Anyone using that item saving throw chart does. (@overgeeked above) is just so wrongheaded. No, not everyone played this way. No, this is not the only possible interpretation of the rules.

These conversations would be SO much more productive if people would stick to their own tables and experiences.
 

A buddy of mine had his car broken into last weekend. The thief took his iPad, his sunglasses, and his dicebag, which had dice he'd been using since he started gaming.

Last I checked, he wasn't so much saddened by the loss as he was blinded by rage.

Lost my dice box recently. Had my first dice set in it (gift from brother 1994), dice deceased mother gifted me, two sets from old friends and some other 90's sets.

Not happy.
 
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