3e does do this on paper. At least, last time I looked at the DMG guidelines, they listed some percentage of encounters should be CRs of 8 or more over the character's average level - where they ought to run away if they want everyone to live.
Lethality: I don't know what I want
- Thread starter GMforPowergamers
- Start date
3e does do this on paper. At least, last time I looked at the DMG guidelines, they listed some percentage of encounters should be CRs of 8 or more over the character's average level - where they ought to run away if they want everyone to live.
Nebulous
Legend
Well....could 5e integrate three levels of "Lethality"? Easy, Normal, Hard. Wouldn't be too difficult to do with a handful of simple rules. Limit hit points to minimum value, incorporate massive damage, have monsters deal extra damage, just a few of those changes would make a huge difference.
That just means your DM is going easy on you. I killed a 4E PC last Friday night, and it was very close to a TPK.
I like 4E's level of lethality--you can die, but it's not common--but I do think the game should be designed so that easy fights play out fast. It's fine to have battles where there isn't a serious risk of death, but they shouldn't take more than 10-20 minutes.
Of course, in 3.x, most monsters could outrun a human, which made running away a bit difficult until / unless you had magic to allow you to run away somewhat faster (or the monster decided you weren't worth running down).
delericho
Legend
I like the way 4e handles death itself. I like the "3 saves" thing (though I'd get rid of death at "minus Bloodied" as I don't think it's needed). I like that healing starts you off at 0. And I like that resurrection is costly, has a medium-term effect, but doesn't lose you a level.
I agree, however, that 4e isn't quite lethal enough.
3e, by contrast, is too lethal at low-levels, about right at mid-levels, and then insane at high levels (easy to die, easy to come back).
I would like 5e by default to have a Beginner tier with the "lethality dial" set to the 4e position (or slightly easier), and then the Heroic, Paragon and Epic tiers set to about mid-level the 3e position.
And, as far as possible, they should show the DM the math that makes all that work, and give him the tools he needs to adjust that lethality dial to whatever value suits. Plus, they should try really hard to encourage the DM to set the dial accordingly and then not fudge the dice to keep PCs alive!
(The talk about levels 1-4/5 for combat lethality is also good. That would tie in with encounter design, and with the notion of the DM configuring his own "lethality dial".)
I agree, however, that 4e isn't quite lethal enough.
3e, by contrast, is too lethal at low-levels, about right at mid-levels, and then insane at high levels (easy to die, easy to come back).
I would like 5e by default to have a Beginner tier with the "lethality dial" set to the 4e position (or slightly easier), and then the Heroic, Paragon and Epic tiers set to about mid-level the 3e position.
And, as far as possible, they should show the DM the math that makes all that work, and give him the tools he needs to adjust that lethality dial to whatever value suits. Plus, they should try really hard to encourage the DM to set the dial accordingly and then not fudge the dice to keep PCs alive!
(The talk about levels 1-4/5 for combat lethality is also good. That would tie in with encounter design, and with the notion of the DM configuring his own "lethality dial".)
If no version of D&D has succeeded yet, perhaps you need something quite different from any D&D so far?
It sounds like you want 3E with a bit less randomness, or 4E with a bit more.
D&D is built on an odd design decision. Most deadly threats need to hit, and then they do some (small) amount of "damage" to your total hit point score; they have to wear you down, even if "realistically" they shouldn't have to. Other deadly threats require a save (like a to-hit roll, but rolled by the target) and then poof!, you're dead, or turned to stone, or whatever.
Players like having plot-protection, in the form of hit points, but those hit points only work against swords and spears, not against spells and poisons, which is odd.
KidSnide
Adventurer
I like a lot of what 4e does with handling extreme damage (it takes a lot of damage to insta-kill a PC) and death saves (although maybe PCs should have less time to save a down comrade).
The real problem with 4e is swinginess. 4e PCs are so durable, than an easy encounter has almost no chance of threatening death. When you combine that with a combat speed where easy encounters don't really play out that much faster than difficult encounters, you get a result that just isn't fun or exciting enough.
-KS
The real problem with 4e is swinginess. 4e PCs are so durable, than an easy encounter has almost no chance of threatening death. When you combine that with a combat speed where easy encounters don't really play out that much faster than difficult encounters, you get a result that just isn't fun or exciting enough.
-KS
Cerebral Paladin
First Post
Lethality strikes me as precisely the sort of thing that would benefit from a knobs approach. I've run games where I wanted PC death to be a common threat, with a gritty feel. I've run games where I wanted PC death to essentially be only something that happens voluntarily, to achieve a heroic goal. Ideally, the game would support either approach (and beyond just varying encounter difficulty--that's an important DMing tool, but how deadly the game is also matters).
Wormwood
Adventurer
Nobody has permanently died in the 3-1/2 campaigns I've played in 4e.
We've been threatened, knocked out, and dragged from the very brink of death, but the systems allows many opportunities to save our beloved characters without lulling us into believing we have 'plot immunity'.
Sweet spot, AFAIAC.
We've been threatened, knocked out, and dragged from the very brink of death, but the systems allows many opportunities to save our beloved characters without lulling us into believing we have 'plot immunity'.
Sweet spot, AFAIAC.
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