D&D 5E (2014) Lethality in 5e: what is your preference and how do you achieve it?

[The Crimson Binome]

I hope that works for you. I've never been a fan of the critical fumble rules, or effects like that from critical hits without some other form of buffer. 99% of opponents are disposable, so if one looses an eye it's no big deal. PCs are center stage, so when one of them looses an eye it's a big deal. While short term (a single battle) the effects are the same, long term the consequences of these systems are stacked against the PC's especially since critical hits are a flat 5% chance. Add in a second buffer like a confirmation roll and I don't have as much of an objection.

We're in definite agreement here, which is why replacing the extra damage seems like it should help players more often than it would hurt them. Against any random monster, most of that critical hit damage was probably lost to overkill anyway. For a player, a wounded-but-conscious PC is more fun than one which suddenly drops from running out of HP.

From a players point of view Saelorn, I hope you pad the list a little bit and make the truly debilitating injuries a bit harder to get. But you know your game and players better than I ever could and I'm sure they trust you to be fair.

Here's the chart that I'm using. Roll d20 whenever you suffer a critical hit.
1-3) Left leg disabled: Speed reduced by half
4-6) Right leg disabled: Speed reduce by half
7-9) Left arm disabled: Cannot hold or use an item with that hand
10-12) Right arm disabled: Cannot hold or use an item with that hand
13-18) Broken rib: Make a Constitution (10) check whenever you would cast a spell, make an attack, etc; failure prevents you from acting
19-20) Concussion: Unconscious for 1d4 rounds, then Disadvantage on spells and Int/Wis/Cha checks

In every case, these can be cured with a Lesser Restoration. In essence, as long as there's a healer in the party, they'll go away after a long rest. I don't mind mandating magical healing for the party, since it means I can use the same basic rules to describe a world where NPCs have enduring broken limbs (as long as magical healing is not common).

 

[Lanefan]

I prefer a game where death can and does happen to PCs, but where revival effects are available (though not guaranteed to work - 1e resurrection survival roll for the win).

That said, in such a game - and particularly when the adventure locale prevents easy access to replacement characters or revival effects - it becomes almost essential that players run more than one character at a time.

Also, I note that every post so far only refers to deaths caused by the opposition, or the environment - I also have to consider deaths via the party members killing each other, which happens often enough to be a factor.

Lanefan

 

[the Jester]

Also, I note that every post so far only refers to deaths caused by the opposition, or the environment - I also have to consider deaths via the party members killing each other, which happens often enough to be a factor.

I mentioned some of this, actually- I've had 2 or 3 pc on pc deaths so far.

 

[SirAntoine]

Threads like this (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?402623-How-do-you-kill-a-10th-level-character/page12) always confirm me that there is hardly a playstyle choice in a RPG that can cause more problems than lethality, if the different players have different preferences or expectations about it!

It seemed to me since the playtest that 5e is clearly more slanted towards low lethality. Perhaps this is the wanted result by the majority of gamers these days, but it's undeniable that others prefer a higher level of lethality, and at the same time 5e promised us high degrees of customizations, so it should be easy to change lethality as well.

In this thread I'd like to hear from everyone what are their typical preferences/expectations on questions such as "how often should the game see a PC die" but also "how often should a TPK happen", "how easy should it be to reverse death" or "how costly should it be to reverse death".

With that, I also want to know how do you achieve those expectations in 5e (in case it doesn't already match them for you), what do you change in the core rules to "dial" the different lethality parameters in your game?

These questions are important.

"How often should the game see a PC die?" The most direct answer, which I hope everyone can agree on, is whenever a PC gets killed. In other words, it's something you let happen, not something you set out to make happen. In seeking the right balance, you are asking a) how deadly should the challenges the PC's face be, and also b) how fragile should the PC's lives be? The DM should never try to kill PC's. D&D is not "DM vs. player". What is "the norm," you may ask? Well, that will vary by playstyle, but I'd say the norm is about a 10-15% chance of one PC dying in any full encounter. Each session will have 2-3 full encounters, so the chance of at least one PC dying each session is significant.

"How often should a TPK happen?" Bear in mind that D&D is a game where the decisions of the players lead to any outcome, and players with different skill levels will often be able to survive a lot longer. Is there something wrong with a campaign that never sees a TPK? I would say of course not. Your players should be congratulated in some sense.

"How easy should it be to reverse death?" I think it should be pretty hard. Death should be a major consequence.

"How costly should it be to reverse death?" Having to undertake a quest for the person who restores the dead to life is probably better than a set fee, even if it's set high. As D&D players are most concerned about when they can return to adventure, raising someone from the dead maybe should require the subject to spend 1-2 weeks in bed before going back. That would help it be a major consequence when the PC's get high enough level to do it themselves, or so powerful they can even pay high costs or fulfill most quests very easily and timely.

 

[Rhenny]

Also, as many have been implying or even stating, it really depends on what the players want more than what the DM wants. As DM, I tune the lethality of the game to the players.

I have long-lasting campaigns with players who just want to keep the story going and live, live, live. In those campaigns, I go out of my way to make sure that PCs don't die (or at least death is rare). Also, in those campaigns, when a PC does die, I usually conference with him/her to find out what they want to have happen to their PC - Then we talk about it with the rest of the group to see how the story plays out. Sometimes we develop interesting ways to keep the PC in the game, or have the PC come back in a few sessions. Sometimes, the player decides to have a new PC join the party in an appropriate way.

In other campaigns I run, sometimes the players actually like it when they die, especially if it is an interesting or memorable death. (This is usually the case more with lower level campaigns though...by the time we get to mid and upper level, most players I've DM'd want to live).

 

[Unwise]

Also, I note that every post so far only refers to deaths caused by the opposition, or the environment - I also have to consider deaths via the party members killing each other, which happens often enough to be a factor.

I am glad I am not the only one. I ran a few campaigns where PCs accounted for about 75% of the PC deaths. In the one long running campaign, we lost roughly 14 PCs to intra-party fighting (versus 2 from NPC combat 3 from stupidity). This was mostly from people baiting honourable characters into attacking them, it also included 4 deaths from 'cursed' items that PCs would not put down. They were not cursed at all, but other PCs decided they were possessed, killing them on two separate occassions.

The thing about PC v PC murder is that there is not a lot the DM can do in-game to fudge it. There are no hidden dice rolls to mess with and any deus ex machina is really just screwing with one PC at the expense of another. Thankfully my players have learned to curtail their murderous ways.

For the next campaign, I simply banned all chivalric codes of honour, all zealots and all evil-esque characters. That heavy handed approach let the players get use to being on the same side and making characters that worked well together. I soon eased the restrictions, but the healing process was done.

On a side note. I have never, in any game I have run in the last 25 years had a PC brought back from the dead. For some reason it just never entered our games as a possibility, players just assume that spells like Raise Dead are not in the game. It certainly makes it easier to maintain world coherency without it, but I am considering playing by D&D default next campaign for something new. Strangely I don't think my players will like it though.

 

[SirAntoine]

I don't think the DM has to allow players to kill each others' PC's in any game. I once said to my players if they all agreed it was okay, then someone could attack another's, but even that is bad. It felt like an invitation for them to act that terribly, almost like an endorsement. We play with the highest etiquette rules.

 

[Sailor Moon]

I let the dice fall where they fall and I don't do the appropriate monster treadmill. Being a hero and sepatating death doesn't happen in my games. Being a hero depends on what what you've done so there are such things as dead heroes in my games.

 

[Lanefan]

I don't think the DM has to allow players to kill each others' PC's in any game.

Even by accident?

Fumbles - critical fumbles - happen. Fireballs into the front line happen. Archers shooting into melee happens. Sometimes these and other oopses end up being lethal.

And sometimes they end up being lethal the other way, where the character who was hit but not killed this time goes and takes it out on the character that did the hitting, or the casting, or the shooting...

We play with the highest etiquette rules.

I'd last about five minutes...

Lan-"who has been on both the giving and receiving end of the above"-efan

 

[transtemporal]

With that, I also want to know how do you achieve those expectations in 5e (in case it doesn't already match them for you), what do you change in the core rules to "dial" the different lethality parameters in your game?

I kinda get the impression a lot of DMs think if at least one character isn't dying every encounter, they aren't doing their job or something. Like they'll have to hand in their ing DM union card and all the other DMs (and those horrible mean dragon killing 3rd level players) will point and laugh.

You can dial up the danger, jeopardy and desperation of your encounters without changing the rules at all. You can achieve this by a) including more monsters in the encounter than usual, or b) depleting the PCs resources before the encounter, or if you really want a balls to the wall, all out fight to the finish c) both.

Stage a deadly encounter. Then, when it looks like they're comfortably winning and giving each smug high-fives, have the BBEG (or other similarly deadly encounter) turn up.* If they don't have "WTF?!" expressions on their faces, then your game is way too easy.

*Although unless you really want a TPK, you should give out a lot of consumables before this fight so they have a fighting chance.