• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D 5E Let's discuss PC contribution and D&D Next

steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
A level 12 character optimized by a rules expert is not equal to one hacked up by a casual gamer.

This is not "at you", Ahnehnois, but it was a line that just piqued my ears...and hackles. I've seen umpteen similar posts portray things in this way...and I am left to wonder "why?"

The "optimized" character is done by a rules "expert"...the other is "hacked" by the "casual gamer"...???

Now...question for ENworld, what sounds like the good/positive in that statement and what sounds like the "bad/negative"?

I for one, will go on record as saying I have NEVER "optimized" a character...and I never considered myself a "casual gamer."

I was never a "rules-lawyer", "min-maxer", "powergamer" or "munchin" (insofar as I understand any of those terms). And, while I do take my gaming casually...it is a GAME, after all...a leisurely pursuit one does for FUN, I don't believe I have ever been a "hack", as the above statement supposes.

I don't know if the above words were chosen on purpose or as a simple reflection of the poster's views/opinions.

I just think that the LANGUAGE used in this or any other post/thread/forum needs a bit of attention...and, if necessary, self-reigning in with the understanding that one's views are not the only views and one's interpretation of the game is just that...an interpretation..and personal experience...nothing more.

Thank you and good night.
--SD
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Ahnehnois

First Post
Two other factors you mention - optimisation expertise and campaign style - I agree that they are important and need to be taken into account when assessing contribution, but it has to be done 'by ear', I don't think a metric is possible.
Now there's a real game design challenge: trying to make characters equal in power if the players aren't equal. Imagine if, when playing tennis we expected a close match every time, even if a professional was playing a high-school doubles player, and every time that didn't happen, we said the professional's racket was too good.

Of course, in D&D the difference is having a DM who is supposed to make sure everyone in the game is having a good time, even if not everyone has the same idea of what that means or the same ability to participate in making that happen.

Style is also primarily the province of the DM.

To the extent that these things can be addressed in rules, I think the key is to give DMs more options. FantasyCraft, for example, seems to have done a decent job of having a number of different campaign style rules that alter the basic framework of the game for everyone, thus making it easier for the DM to convey and enact a particular style of game. There's also something to be said for having simple characters that the DM can read and understand and easily figure out what to do with (as opposed to high-level spellcasters with tons of spells or characters with a ton of fiddly complicated powers). But ultimately, it comes down to the people at the table doing the right things.
 

Ahnehnois

First Post
This is not "at you", Ahnehnois, but it was a line that just piqued my ears...and hackles. I've seen umpteen similar posts portray things in this way...and I am left to wonder "why?"

The "optimized" character is done by a rules "expert"...the other is "hacked" by the "casual gamer"...???

Now...question for ENworld, what sounds like the good/positive in that statement and what sounds like the "bad/negative"?

...

I just think that the LANGUAGE used in this or any other post/thread/forum needs a bit of attention...and, if necessary, self-reigning in with the understanding that one's views are not the only views and one's interpretation of the game is just that...an interpretation..and personal experience...nothing more.

Thank you and good night.
--SD
I can kind of see what you're saying, although that wasn't my intent. I think the word "hack" is more negative to you than it is to me. I frequently "hack up" academic work that borders on publishable quality. I use the word to mean that I did it quickly (and in D&D, a character that is designed quickly is typically less powerful than one that is designed by carefully referencing a hundred different supplements looking for the best combination of abilities). If anything, there is a self-effacing complementary connotation to this usage of the word "hack" in my eyes.

It is certainly not my viewpoint that character optimization is desirable, or that people who do it in D&D are intellectually superior to those who don't. Quite the contrary. If anything, I was getting at the idea when players approach the game in different ways, any negative consequences that ensue are the responsibility of everyone at the table, of all skill levels and philosophies.

Hopefully this is clear.
 

Elf Witch

First Post
The thing that makes me shake my head is that PCs should all be able to contribute equally in all aspects of the game. I disagree with this.

Bards should always outshine a fighter in diplomatic social encounters just like the fighter should outshine the bard when it comes to combat.

I don't think they should have no chance at all. I dislike the way skills are done in 3E I don't believe anything should be cross classed and all skills should be open to all classes.

If I want to pour all my skill points into diplomacy as a fighter I should be able to. Maybe that is the concept I am going for.

The DM knows what kind of game they are planning to run if it is going to be heavy on social encounters tell your players this from the start so they can build a suitable character. The same if it is going to be a heavy combat light role playing game.
 

CM

Adventurer
I don't want to speak for every fan of class balance, but I don't think anybody is seriously asking for classes to be equally capable in all situations. We just want to make sure 5e has no classes that can make another class completely redundant (CODzilla, etc.). It's important that no class played as-intended is completely dominant in a pillar in such a way that the DM is forced to develop countering strategies to ensure that the obstacle, opponent, or NPC isn't trivially defeated. If something is trivially defeated, it might as well not be there.

In my perfect world, each class would get a special boost to one pillar but still remain competent in the other two:

Bard
Excels at social, competent in combat, exploration

Fighter
Excels at combat, competent in social, exploration

Rogue
Excels at exploration, competent in combat, social

Wizard:
Varies depending on school specialty, but only excelling at one pillar.

Cleric:
Varies depending on god, but only excelling at one pillar.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
It's important that no class played as-intended is completely dominant in a pillar in such a way that the DM is forced to develop countering strategies to ensure that the obstacle, opponent, or NPC isn't trivially defeated.
Agreed.

The problem arises all too soon, however, when "played-as-intended" becomes "played-as-optimized"; and the game becomes divided into two classes of player: the char-ops wonk and the rest.

That said, let's face it: at most tables the dominant social character is going to be the one run by the most talkative/engaged player regardless of class. That leaves exploration and combat...
In my perfect world, each class would get a special boost to one pillar but still remain competent in the other two:

Bard
Excels at social, competent in combat, exploration

Fighter
Excels at combat, competent in social, exploration

Rogue
Excels at exploration, competent in combat, social

Wizard:
Varies depending on school specialty, but only excelling at one pillar.

Cleric:
Varies depending on god, but only excelling at one pillar.
Laudable, but if classes are going to be as malleable as some seem to think it might be pretty easy to make a character excel in two or more than decent enough at all three.

Lan-"whatever structure these three pillars are holding up I want to explore it, kill its occupants, and take their stuff"-efan
 

CM

Adventurer
The problem arises all too soon, however, when "played-as-intended" becomes "played-as-optimized"; and the game becomes divided into two classes of player: the char-ops wonk and the rest.

This is why I cringe every time I hear someone post that they want system mastery rewarded. The nuggets of information we have gotten so far (like haste never providing anyone more attacks than the fighter is capable of out-of-the-box are signs that WotC is still paying close attention to balance.
 

Raith5

Adventurer
I don't want to speak for every fan of class balance, but I don't think anybody is seriously asking for classes to be equally capable in all situations. We just want to make sure 5e has no classes that can make another class completely redundant (CODzilla, etc.). It's important that no class played as-intended is completely dominant in a pillar in such a way that the DM is forced to develop countering strategies to ensure that the obstacle, opponent, or NPC isn't trivially defeated. If something is trivially defeated, it might as well not be there.

Agree there is big difference between making a meaningful contribution and a equal contribution to each pillar.

It is also important, I think, in moving away from the old clichés of all fighters are dumb, all rouges are clever and all wizards are smart and wear funny hats.

It seems themes and backgrounds have the promise of breaking up these (old) sterotypes and make possible a charming fighter, a socially awkward rouge etc
 

FireLance

Legend
I don't want to speak for every fan of class balance, but I don't think anybody is seriously asking for classes to be equally capable in all situations.
Well, to be fair, 4e did try to ensure that all classes would be equally capable in combat, although different classes were intended to contribute to the successful resolution of a combat encounter in different ways. The skill challenge system was also intended to provide all classes with broader mechanical scope to contribute to the successful resolution of non-combat challenges, although the fact that different classes had varying numbers and types of trained skills already meant that here, at least, they were on a more unequal footing. Of course, contributing outside of the rules is, almost by definition, something that no mechanics can ensure, and that is entirely dependant on player creativity and enthusiasm.

However, and IMO, characters being able to contribute equally in all situations is not a problem. The problem is distinctiveness. If a rogue can open a door by picking a lock, a wizard can open it with a knock spell, and a fighter can simply break it down with brute strength, you could make an argument that although various methods are used, it makes no effective difference whether you play a rogue, a wizard or a fighter. A related point could be something that, for want of a better term, I will call the "natural spotlight". It's the idea that different characters are supposed to be good at different things, and over the course of a typical campaign, different challenges would be encountered and different characters would take turns to share the spotlight: the rogue for stealth and infiltration, the wizard for lore and knowledge, and the fighter for combat.

Now, as with equal contributions, the natural spotlight is not in itself a bad thing, and in fact, it aligns nicely with the inherent tropes of a class-based role-playing game. However, taken to extremes, the potential problem is lack of participation. If there are parts of the game where only one type of character can make any meaningful contribution, you are effectively locking out participation from players of other character types (barring, of course, contributions outside of the rules which are player-dependant, as mentioned above). You can mitigate the problem by keeping such challenges short and expecting the non-participating players to show patience, but IMO, this is tackling the symptom, not the problem itself.

There is a third issue that tends to be brought up in relation to PC contributions, and that is spotlight stealing, but I consider that more of a balance issue than one directly to do with contribution, so I mention it only for the sake of completeness and will not go further into it.

My sense of the 5e approach to contribution is that it will address the participation issue by ensuring that all classes have a basic level of competence in what the designers have identified as the three pillars of combat, exploration and interaction. It will also address the distinctiveness issue by ensuring that different classes will have different levels of competence beyond the basic in the three pillars. So, it seems to me that the designers have already recognized the two problems mentioned above and are taking steps to avoid them.
 

I want the game to be fun and intuitive and not reward stupid choices, or punish common sense ones.

Ex 1: Player A wants to be a swordsman of legendary skill, the type that can with a few moments prepare and go into battle the best a swordman can.

Player B wants to play a holy a just knight dedicated to a god, he wants to be able to help his friends out a little, but mostly to lay down the damage to evil, and be a shinining becon of good.

Player C didn't know what to play, but says he will try a cleric, as long as everyone lets him not be a heal bot...

player D wants to be a versitle caster and summoner, who has som blasting power

If A chooses fighter, and B paliden, and C druid, and D chooses wizard... then at level 9 the druid is more of there concepts then they are, by accedent.

The best front line combatant should not be a self buffed cleric...
let me re type that, and please someone if you can tell me this is right or wrong...The best front line combatant should not be a self buffed cleric...

ex 2: Player A is a 12th level theif (rogue what ever) with magic lock picks, and speclized in basic B&E. Player B is a wizard with a scroll of knock.

The DM tells the players time is of the essence (You can make up your own reason why) witch is better at opening the locked door fastest... witch one has a chance of failur?

If a 5th level fighter, and a 3rd level rogue/2nd level fighter go head to head for who is better at combat with the same allies backing them up, the 1st character is up +1 Bab, 6 hp, +2 fort and 1 feat. character b is up a 18 skill points, 2d6 sneak attack, evasion, +2 reflex


I want the magic users not to be the defualt best at everything, and the system to be intuitive, and not punish. I think the best way to look at it is th if we call the 3 pillars how people play (I do not support this idea fully, but am unable to express a better one) then you should start with max and minumam

the best level 1 character is X in any 1 pillar, the worst is Y. No class will ever fall below Y at 1st level. No class will ever be better then X at 1dt level.
 

Remove ads

Top