D&D General Let's Share Our Alternate Lore

[Inanity]

I agree that magic should not feel tacked on. But I think that if you maintain all the same real-world assumptions about physics and biology and the other sciences, magic is probably going to feel tacked on no matter how hard you think about it. You have to change your worldview to one where magic is an integral part from the bottom up.

I think the attempt to give the forces of magic a homogeneous interpretation to that we give other regular physical forces IS AN ATTEMPT to integrate magic into the fundamental structure of reality. My Emphasis.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Who says magic is the fifth force? Who says there are four other forces? Who says gravity is a force and not, say, a centripetal property shared by the elements of earth and water but not fire and air? Who says a human nervous system works with electromagnetism rather than, say, qi?

I agree that magic should not feel tacked on. But I think that if you maintain all the same real-world assumptions about physics and biology and the other sciences, magic is probably going to feel tacked on no matter how hard you think about it. You have to change your worldview to one where magic is an integral part from the bottom up.

Or... not. Lemme put it this way: I rewatched Toy Story recently. I do not think the story would have been improved by an explanation of how Woody can walk and talk. Sometimes less is more.

This whole line of discussion arose from the idea of magic as the 5th fundamental force. So, I think it is @Lanefan who says (though only with respect to Lanefan's campaign, obviously).

As I said in a previous post, my preference is for magic to be more occult in nature. However, if one is to establish it as a fundamental force, I think it ought to be fully integrated as such.

You can obviously create a world in which RL physics has no bearing, and that's fine too. Although you should probably have some idea of how/why things work the way they do. Less can be more for the audience. I never said you need to reveal how things work to the players. But you should probably have an idea of how things work for your own purposes, in case it ever becomes relevant. Of course, you could just wait for it to become relevant, but there's no guarantee that you'll be able to improv a consistent and coherent answer in the moment. That's at least one good reason to start from the four fundamental forces as a basis. IMO, of course.

 

[dave2008]

As I said in a previous post, my preference is for magic to be more occult in nature. However, if one is to establish it as a fundamental force, I think it ought to be fully integrated as such.

I prefer to think of magic as fundamentally present in all things, but not a fundamental force.

 

[Inanity]

This whole line of discussion arose from the idea of magic as the 5th fundamental force. So, I think it is @Lanefan who says (though only with respect to Lanefan's campaign, obviously).

As I said in a previous post, my preference is for magic to be more occult in nature. However, if one is to establish it as a fundamental force, I think it ought to be fully integrated as such.

You can obviously create a world in which RL physics has no bearing, and that's fine too. Although you should probably have some idea of how/why things work the way they do. Less can be more for the audience. I never said you need to reveal how things work to the players. But you should probably have an idea of how things work for your own purposes, in case it ever becomes relevant. Of course, you could just wait for it to become relevant, but there's no guarantee that you'll be able to improv a consistent and coherent answer in the moment. That's at least one good reason to start from the four fundamental forces as a basis. IMO, of course.

Yeah and I think in this context it is important to distinguish two theories from one another ; as conflating them sometimes leads to confusion, and clarifying the differences will illuminate the context:

First, these theories are intended to be about D&D worlds (namely ways we can specify the correct metaphysics/or simpler the correct theory of the D&D world, not our own). EDIT: Also, it is worth noting that the theories of IN-GAME thinkers may be constructed in a different language (well surely they wouldnt use OUR language) but we can say this: if an in-game world thinker happens to construct a theory T and also T happens to be correct then T is (im)possibly translatable to T* (where T* is OUR theory we STIPULATE to be correct in the game world; my (partial) theories 1), 2) and 3) below are all possible contenders for T*.)

1) That there IS NO MAGIC; there is just the stuff real world physicists talk about (we import real physics into our game world and say no magic exists there ony OUR STUFF; or real medievel science or whatever I use physics as an example and not a constraint; we could use ancient Aristotilian metaphysics of Matter [earth/air/fire/water] and Form; or whatever)... This D&D world is one were magic is not a thing at all, no FIFTH FORCE (in this context)... Maybe we can simulate magical effects with technology but there really just exists no magical force.

AND

2) There is magic and it is an indirectly observable (or even directly obervable) force much akin to and fundamentally related to the other PHYSICAL forces and there exists a (possible) correct (maybe unknown) theory where M (magic, the 5th force) is given a consistent and unified treatment in relation to electromagnetics, gravity etc (or WHATEVER THE TRUE theory is.. quantum locations whatever)...

Now there are interesting questions concerning whether or not 1) and 2) are in fact, perhaps hiddenly, the 'same' theory (whether the content of one of the theories somehow MEANs the same as the other, bt that is a sort of tricky and hard discussion; that I am willing to disucssion if interested but for what its worth I think the truth condition for some of the statements in the two theories are distinct)...

There is another theory that is worth mentioning.

3) There is Magic. It is so radically different than what we find [HERE], that any language that correctly describes magic is not commensurate (or translatable to) a language that correctly describes physics ( magic could be fundamental could not be fundamental, could be alien influences, etc.)

I imagine there are other possibilities as well but ill stop now...

EDIT and P.S. to those concerned, there is major meta language vs object language issues in the above sentences (mainly in my explications of theories 1),2) and 3; i.e. the sentences of the theories are couched in some quasi-language, at least clauses are written using metametalanguage or object language words without signifying the change or difference). Solvable but glaring to the trained.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

In my homebrew, lizardfolk, tabaxi, minotaurs, tortles, aarakocra are all descendants of humans who were experimented on by an ancient civilisation and mutated into their current forms (they all still breed true).

Orcs, hobgoblins and goblins are similarly mutated (though closer to the original) versions of elves, humans and gnomes (hence why they can interbreed with other races).

Bugbears are orcish/hobgoblin hybrids. Elves are descendants of humans and fey (hence why they share traits of both). Gods are distant, perhaps non-existant.

 

[Tonguez]

.
So, at least to me, if magic is the 5th force then it taking the day off ought to have greater consequences than a mere power outage. Don't get me wrong, they're not fundamental forces because their stopping would end all life. Rather, all life is dependent on them because they are fundamental forces of the universe. Life evolved with them in place. In areas where that force is subdued life might evolve without a need for it, but I would expect elsewhere for it to be rather intrinsic. Otherwise it's a bit of a vestigial force, if it is only of real consequence to mages and supernatural creatures.

For example, maybe without magic the world is purely physical. Souls are dependent on the 5th force and cease to be/function without it. Life wouldn't cease without magic, in that scenario, but it would change quite drastically. Maybe this is reflected by the good/evil alignment axis being suppressed and going with just the old school law/chaos axis. That's just spitballing though.

My point being that I think that if you make magic a fundamental force, you need to find a way to make it intrinsic to that world. It can't just be important for mages and the like - it should be fundamental to everyone (everyone whose ancestors didn't evolve in a null-magic zone at any rate). If the nature of magic is vague (whether or not its application is formulaic and predictable) then it doesn't need to be fundamental.

in my model we used Thaumic flux in the Thaumic Field being analogous to electricity in the Electromagnetic field.
So certain materials, objects and structures would generate a flux-current in the Thaumic Field which could then be harnessed for magic.
Some materials and structures however caused the Thaumic flux to become Resonant with the Thaumic-Field interaction and this introduced variability either through a Thaumic Surge (Wildmagic surge) or a Null-magic zone (Null-state) - not because the Thaumic field was absent but rather because the Flux ‘current’ wasnt being conducted in a way that it could be used.

The great thing about Quantum is that even Physicist dont know exactly how it works, so with enough technobable any theory can be crafted for your fantasy world.

 

[Inanity]

I prefer to think of magic as fundamentally present in all things, but not a fundamental force.

Right, it may be mere abbreviated convenience to use the language of Forces. Is magic a thing (or an (kind of) entity posited)? Or rather is magic a feature of things?

Forces connote the language of thinghood... forces are things that exist and have certain dynamical features... But note that forces could be manifetations of the properties of things and actually sort hand for the features of things; the electromaggnectic field is just a featue of a mass-ey interaction... actually I think in Newtonian mechanics Force(=Mass X Acceleration squared) actually IS A DYNAMICAL FEATURE of things.

This debate actually is at much close to some real world debates that are hard and tricky (as the theories are plenty; one could say FEATURES/POWERS=THINGS; then everyone in the room scratches their head)...

 

[S'mon]

For my part, I like to mess with the origins of monsters. Ogres, for example, are usually the bastard children of hags and noblemen who traded their seed to the hag for some boon or spell or whatever. Sometimes the ogre comes for his inheritance when the nobleman dies. Sometimes the nobleman decides to hunt down the monster (using the PCs) and the PCs find themselves in a weird moral position. I am sure I read it in some novel, myth or other game at some point and did not create it myself, but I just like the way it gives inherent backstory to a standard dumb monster.

I often have trolls be the male offspring of hags IMCs.

 

[Voadam]

I used to have elves and gnomes be humanoid subtype fey in my 3e games.

 

[GnomeWorks]

I'm working on a "player's guide" type of deal for my setting, to try to explain the metaphysics and how magic works and all that jazz.

Here's a link to the doc.