Let's Talk About WotC DM Supplements.

For me, I like the fluff that comes in the supplements. Tell me about Sigil or the City of Brass. What about those cities lets your players feel like they are in one as opposed to the other.

It was the fluff that made me like Open Grave and Manual of the Planes for instance. The fluff gives me ideas for future adventures, campaigns, encounters, etc. If you can throw some crunch (like terrain powers/effects) etc. in there as well, then all the better.

I don't though buy a book like Open Grave or Underdark for the monsters. For me, if I'm just looking for monsters, I'll grab a Monster Manual instead. Having monsters included is nice, but its not the point of the book to me. I'm much more about stoking the creative fires so to speak.

I will say though that I do like the idea of the adventure site books. I figure that worst case scenario, they give me a map I can use later when I'm stuck for ideas.
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All of this pretty much is how I feel. 99 times out of 100 I'm looking for adventure material, not monsters and magic items. Open Grave, MOTP, etc are still just as useful to me, because of the ideas, locations, and inspiration they provide.

Big fan of the DMGs as well.

Hammerfast I think is really great supplement-regardless of game system you use- it's almost stat free. I won't run the city exactly as written, but it gave me a ton of inspiration, ans is 90% usable to me. ( I plan to eliminate the living orcish element in the city as well as the "agreement" between Moradin & Gruumsh- it will simply be a re-colonization over the ancient Dwarven Necropolis that destroyed when the bloodspears flattened the Vale )
 

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Until I started coordinating and running a table for Encounters at my FLGS, I was running successful games with just the three core books plus DMGII, MMII and now MMIII, and AVI.

I consider my games successful when everyone has fun and an interesting story is told.

For a new book to be worth its cover-price it has to promise to make my game even more fun and the stories told even more interesting.


  • DMGII picks up where excellent DMGI leaves off and will help you tell better stories.
  • MMIII and the rules updates to adjust monster HP, accuracy, and damage are essential. However, the MMIII monsters are a varied lot and you still need MMI and MMII for the classics, even if you have to "update" their statblocks. These adjusted stats make the game more fun.
  • AVI is dry as the antarctic to read. But the first chapter brings so much flavor and options to your monsters and NPCs, forget the players, that it is essential. The new weapons were very "Dark Sun" two years before the official Dark Sun release. Great for adding a flair of the exotic to your creatures. Mounts and vehicles were sorely missing from the PHB and DMG. And alchemy has been awesome in my games. Notice I haven't even mentioned the 160+ pages of magic items--including the very fun consumables--and rules for creating magic items. I do wish it had included more rituals. This book makes the game more fun and helps tell more interesting stories.
Those four books (DMGII, MMII, MMIII, and AVI) have been so good to me I recommend new DMs buy them and study them as soon as they can. They are worth their full cover price, IMHO, which is saying a lot since AV is $30 (and out of print, I believe), MMII and MMIII are $35 each, and DMGII is $35.

Oh, and despite the problems with the backside being out of date, the DMG screen is the best I've used. It's long, so you have plenty of coverage across "your" space, but it's short so you can see the table in front of you and player's don't feel like you have built a wall. The art on the player's side is a masterpiece. And it's heavy duty: mine still looks like new. Only $10 makes it an impulse buy, or a rounding error if you are starting from scratch at this point.

My FLGS gives me a great discount in lieu of pay, so I've picked up almost all of the other supplements now. I haven't found anything that reaches the bar set by those four already mentioned. Everything else is either situational or mediocre at best.

Supplements:

  • Manual of the Planes: Not necessary until you reach Paragon tier, then it's really a must, but you'll need to combine it with Plane Below and Plane Above to get the most out of it. $30 is steep since it's a pretty slender volume. $15
  • Open Grave: Could be titled "The Plane to the Left: Secrets of the Shadowfell"; if you are going to feature either the Shadowfell or undead in your campaign you should want this. $30 seems fair if your game will be spending quite a bit of time with its subject matter. Otherwise the MMs do a great job for your occasional encounter. Probably most useful at mid- to late-Heroic tier.
  • Dungeon Delve: It was a stop-gap until DDI got its legs under it. $30 dollars is way to much to spend these days. Spend $10 once for DDI and download every issue of Dungeon instead. I also recommend making random tables of adventure hooks, monsters, hazards, traps, and dungeon tiles. Trying to make a coherent story out of the results is a great exercise in storytelling and can actually create a very memorable session.
  • PHBII is clearly essential, because you can't properly create a gnome sorcerer NPC without it. ;-)
  • Adventurer's Vault II: Not worth it. Once again, it's impossible to read through because it's just item block after item block. Immurements are interesting, and there are some neat wondrous items, but item sets seem like the natural and potentially campaign destroying (stop everything while Joe the Fighter tries to complete his set!) end result of encouraging player wish lists. The worst thing is charging the same price as AVI ($30) but being 70 pages shorter and not bringing as much to the game. A major pass.
  • Dragon Magazine Annual 2009: As I said for Dungeon Delve, just pay $10 for a one-month subscription to DDI and download every back issue. Maybe look at this book's table of contents as a suggested reading list. Saving the $30 cover price will let you repeat this little trick three times over three years.
  • The Plane Below: Secrets of the Elemental Chaos: A good book full of interesting fluff, locations, and monsters. But the Elemental Chaos is extremely deadly. You won't use it in-game until late Paragon tier or early Epic, but then it is a must. Getting it before then could influence you to direct your game into the EC if you weren't planning to already. $30 is a bit steep, but the $20 Amazon price seems right.
  • Underdark: Almost a campaign setting in its own right. Like with The Plane Below, you might end up sending your game underground for the duration after picking this up. $30 seems right for a campaign setting. If you are into this style of game, you'll want to pick this up early in the Heroic tier.
  • PHBIII: Psionics--If you want that you need this. Also necessary to adequately create the guild of gnome monk ninjas to assist your players in taking down the union of halfling rogue thieves.
  • The Plane Above: Secrets of the Astral Sea: A must once you hit the early Paragon tier, IMHO. As with The Plane Below, $30 is a little steep, but the Amazon price seems about right.
  • D&D Player's Strategy Guide: I just picked this up on a whim and was blown away. You know how the DMG and DMGII are hailed as great because of the outstanding advice they give on how to be a great DM? Well this is the outstanding advice on how to be a great player. It could be called "PHB I, vol. 2". As the DM you should be able to coach your players, especially those brand new to the game. This book will help you do that. I am so happy I picked this up. It should have been $20, with a $15 or less Amazon price so that everyone who plays 4E would pick it up.
  • Dungeon Magazine Annual: See Dragon Magazine Annual, above.
  • Demonomicon: Just picked this up. First impression is that I'm not sure if this is necessary if you already own The Plane Below. I'd definitely pick up The Plane Below first. $30 seems expensive for what you get. I wish the development time had been spent on either an outdoor adventure or Feywild guide.
  • I haven't picked up either Draconomicon yet, so can't comment. I also don't own any of the Power books.
  • I have become a really big fan of dungeon tiles since using them for Encounters instead of the poster maps that come with the adventure. They are priced right, but go out of print way too quickly, after which time they go for outrageous prices. I'd pick up two of each set if you get into them. Most of my players have become big fans, even though they've always said they prefer hand drawn maps. They are most useful for heroic tier adventures since once you hit Paragon and Epic the locations are either so sprawling or abstract you either will need way more tiles than you have available or tiles won't adequately represent what you want to have represented.

Adventures:

  • H1, H2, H3: H1 has become a classic. The rest are just OK at best. $30 is way too much for H1, and asking $25 for H2 and H3 isn't much better.
  • P1, P2, P3: I don't own these, but I haven't heard anything good about them either. I believe P3 sets the stage for and ties directly into the E-series. I don't see how they can ask $25 for these kinds of adventures and think they'll sell any.
  • E1, E2, E3: Amazing, amazing concept. Just terrific. Unfortunately the actual encounters are written are primarily a nonstop, railroaded battle across three adventures and ten levels. I'm reworking these to someday use as a campaign arc, but when you risk players saying "oh, no, another fight against the forces of Orcus" something's wrong. If you pick these up you'll want to also have Manual of the Planes, Open Grave, Plane Below, and Plane Above. Again, $25 each is too much to pay for these adventures.
  • I don't own Revenge of the Giants, Hammerfast, Tomb of Horrors, or Vor Rukoth, so can't speak to them. $30 for RotG and ToH seems too expensive by half. $10 on Amazon for Hammerfast and Vor Rukoth seems right.
  • HS1 is a groundbreaking published adventure design for WotC. A recommended first adventure for new players or players new to 4E. HS2, unfortunately, falls back into the every encounter is a fight to the death mold.
I am now guiding all my future purchases based on these assessments.

I've flipped through Underdark before, and I'm definitely going to set my late paragon tier game there, while using Vor Rukoth as a bridge between late heroic and early paragon. I'm currently using the Chaos Scar as the basis of my early heroic campaign.
 

For a dedicated DM (this is your hobby, you **will** be spending your discretionary budget on D&D 4E) all of the DM Supplements are worth purchase, as long as you apply rules updates.

Maybe you should buy some before others if you are starting from scratch and are cash-flow constrained (buy DMG1, then DMG2, then MMI adjusting for rules updates, then MMIII, then MMII, then whatever tickles your fancy).

But they are all very well done.

You probably don't need anything past DMGI, DMGII, MMI in the Heroic Tier. MMII, MMIII, MotP should come into play in late heroic.

If you are aiming for a particular style campaign, start getting those books around mid- to late- heroic.

Try organizing or DMing D&D Encounters and getting your FLGS to give you a sick—better than Amazon—discount and pick them all up.
 

For a dedicated DM (this is your hobby, you **will** be spending your discretionary budget on D&D 4E) all of the DM Supplements are worth purchase, as long as you apply rules updates.

Maybe you should buy some before others if you are starting from scratch and are cash-flow constrained (buy DMG1, then DMG2, then MMI adjusting for rules updates, then MMIII, then MMII, then whatever tickles your fancy).

But they are all very well done.

You probably don't need anything past DMGI, DMGII, MMI in the Heroic Tier. MMII, MMIII, MotP should come into play in late heroic.

If you are aiming for a particular style campaign, start getting those books around mid- to late- heroic.
I already have the DMGs and other stuff, I just started this thread to discuss the product lines value to DMs, especially since DMs don't really HAVE to buy supplements and can build adventures, campaigns and monsters off the Core, and appraising the supplements becomes more valuable, especially, as you put it, when DDI renders books like Dungeon Delve obsolete.

So advice appreciated, but this isn't my first time running the game, though as of this month it's the first time I'm really planning out my campaign over multiple arcs. I'm already running Tomb of Horrors as a parallel campaign.

Try organizing or DMing D&D Encounters and getting your FLGS to give you a sick—better than Amazon—discount and pick them all up.
I actually already run a D&D event called POLYHEDRAL. We stuff six DMs into a bar, charge entrance and people get free drinks, a free pouch of dice and a chance to win one of many raffle prizes and a game. We also have a combat-oriented gladiator tournament and we gave away Heroes of the Fallen Lands, loads of minis and dice last month. (Not really the point you were making, but I just wanted to say it.)
 

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