D&D 5E Level 20 Class Competition Ideas

[Hohige]

Outside of the competition, the spell is utterly broken as a Wizard (or Bard actually!) could have as many simulacrums as he has time and the inclination to make.

There are alot of things that is utterly broken with DM fiat
The Divine Soul Sorcerer can control 100 Coualt with 20k gold and Twin Simulacrum to duplicate himself and Mother Drow (CR 20 humanoid, legendary)
But again, DM fiat.

 

[Asisreo]

Personally, I agree with you that other characters should have the things that they would reasonably have by tier 4:

+3 weapons? you bet!
magic rings? why not?!

And maybe a DM might make the accumulation of 1500 worth of ruby dust take time, but not impossible or an unreasonable amount time.

The point is, in such a competition, the Simulacrum spell means (at best) others will be fighting 2 vs. 1.

Outside of the competition, the spell is utterly broken as a Wizard (or Bard actually!) could have as many simulacrums as he has time and the inclination to make.

Okay, but if I was preparing for a fight with simulacrum wizards, why wouldn't I have: ring of invisibility, sapphire ring of resistance, potion of gaseous form, and a helm of teleporation?

I'm fairly sure most martial builds with this equipment, which shouldn't be too hard to get at level 20 (besides maybe the ring of invisibility), could wreck the simulacrum.

This isn't my competition build, btw, which I also think could probably beat the simulacrum diviner wizards.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Okay, but if I was preparing for a fight with simulacrum wizards, why wouldn't I have: ring of invisibility, sapphire ring of resistance, potion of gaseous form, and a helm of teleporation?

I'm fairly sure most martial builds with this equipment, which shouldn't be too hard to get at level 20 (besides maybe the ring of invisibility), could wreck the simulacrum.

This isn't my competition build, btw, which I also think could probably beat the simulacrum diviner wizards.

But even given such things, you can't start with them active. So, the ring would require an action, and once you attack you would be visible. The teleport from the helm can be countered, and even if it isn't you can't leave the arena. Gaseous form? Ok, but you can't attack then...

So, even with an assortment of magic items, I wouldn't be concerned about any martial build or of them wrecking the simulacrum.

Anyway, I don't want to get into another build vs. build. The point is simulacrum is broken, and a couple simple errata sentences and boom problems solved.

 

[Hohige]

Nothing is more broken, simply and early than Subtle Dominate Person/Monster and True Ressurection.

You can ressurect any creature and dominate it with impunity.
A lot of things is utterly broken with DM fiat.

 

[Asisreo]

But even given such things, you can't start with them active. So, the ring would require an action, and once you attack you would be visible. The teleport from the helm can be countered, and even if it isn't you can't leave the arena. Gaseous form? Ok, but you can't attack then...

So, even with an assortment of magic items, I wouldn't be concerned about any martial build or of them wrecking the simulacrum.

Anyway, I don't want to get into another build vs. build. The point is simulacrum is broken, and a couple simple errata sentences and boom problems solved.

I was being a bit generous with the magic items, because I would probably just use a cloak of invisibility, Armor of force resistance, rod of absorption and various potions like Storm Giant Strength, Growth, Flying, Speed.

I'm still not using my actual magic item equipment because I think it would be a nice surprise.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I was being a bit generous with the magic items, because I would probably just use a cloak of invisibility, Armor of force resistance, rod of absorption and various potions like Storm Giant Strength, Growth, Flying, Speed.

I'm still not using my actual magic item equipment because I think it would be a nice surprise.

Again, not trying to get into the build argument, but since you changed your magic items. That is quite a list of magic you are suggesting:

Cloak of Invisibility (Legendary)
Armor of Force Resistance (Rare)
Rod of Absorption (Very Rare)
Storm Giant Strength (Legendary)
Flying (Very Rare)
Speed (Very Rare)

So, you want two Legendary items and three Very Rares... only the potion of Growth is uncommon. The value of those items well exceeds the DMG recommendations (pg 38) or the guidelines I suggested in the OP.

Not that any of that really matters, but it is a bit beyond the 1500 gp worth of powdered ruby for Simulacrum that started this newest back-and-forth.

A wizard and his simulacrum can both be Invulnerable (unless the simulacrum was created by a Wish, but it isn't even needed really...), See Invisible (no concentration), and pound any martial build with evocations spells for enough damage to destroy a small castle. Choose a flying race or Winged Boots or any flying magical item, and it removes that dodge as well.

In summary, no martial build (short of having an artifact or relic) can really compete with a Wizard, let alone the Diviner, especially if they are prepared.

 

[Asisreo]

Again, not trying to get into the build argument, but since you changed your magic items. That is quite a list of magic you are suggesting:

Cloak of Invisibility (Legendary)
Armor of Force Resistance (Rare)
Rod of Absorption (Very Rare)
Storm Giant Strength (Legendary)
Flying (Very Rare)
Speed (Very Rare)

So, you want two Legendary items and three Very Rares... only the potion of Growth is uncommon. The value of those items well exceeds the DMG recommendations (pg 38) or the guidelines I suggested in the OP.

Not that any of that really matters, but it is a bit beyond the 1500 gp worth of powdered ruby for Simulacrum that started this newest back-and-forth.

A wizard and his simulacrum can both be Invulnerable (unless the simulacrum was created by a Wish, but it isn't even needed really...), See Invisible (no concentration), and pound any martial build with evocations spells for enough damage to destroy a small castle. Choose a flying race or Winged Boots or any flying magical item, and it removes that dodge as well.

In summary, no martial build (short of having an artifact or relic) can really compete with a Wizard, let alone the Diviner, especially if they are prepared.

I wouldn't say it's unobtainable for a level 20 martial, though.

There's a very easy way that a fighter can bypass a spell like invulnerability if he's prepared. Never underestimate the mundane. I'll give a hint: it isn't even a magic item, and it only costs 200gp.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I wouldn't say it's unobtainable for a level 20 martial, though.

There's a very easy way that a fighter can bypass a spell like invulnerability if he's prepared. Never underestimate the mundane. I'll give a hint: it isn't even a magic item, and it only costs 200gp.

Unobtainable? No. But that certainly depends on the campaign style. Since we need a common baseline, and 5E was designed to be playable with no magical items at all, I think your list is well above the norm, at least IME.

Anyway... seriously, you think poison is the answer? Boy, I hope you haven't gotten rid of your drawing board...

The only thing I would be even remotely concern with is the Monk, and there are other ways around that.

 

[Asisreo]

Unobtainable? No. But that certainly depends on the campaign style. Since we need a common baseline, and 5E was designed to be playable with no magical items at all, I think your list is well above the norm, at least IME.

Anyway... seriously, you think poison is the answer? Boy, I hope you haven't gotten rid of your drawing board...

The only thing I would be even remotely concern with is the Monk, and there are other ways around that.

Well of course I haven't revealed my true build yet. I'm not going to give anyone time to look up a counter to it. I'm not rooting for the fighter anyway, though.

Although, what's wrong with poison? It's a perfectly valid way to knock concentration out of a pesky spellcaster.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Well of course I haven't revealed my true build yet. I'm not going to give anyone time to look up a counter to it. I'm not rooting for the fighter anyway, though.

Although, what's wrong with poison? It's a perfectly valid way to knock concentration out of a pesky spellcaster.

Nothing wrong with poison, but in a game with feats, any serious Wizard who doesn't take Resilient for CON is asking for trouble. Given their low HP, having a good CON (or great one really) is also desirable. Most poisons have such a low DC (particularly ones the incapacitate) that you only fail on a 1 really. I mean, I know it is a stretch but very possible for a CON 18 or 20 even, and with DC 13 you could have a +11 max, meaning a 2 succeeds.

That is more why Quivering Palm is such a possible pain. Given a maxed out WIS score, the DC becomes 19, so the odds of failure increase to 35% or so instead of just 5-10% against poison.

Well, I hope you have a great build in mind then! I'm still thinking about a way to organize this whole thing...