Licensing, OGL and Getting D&D Compatible Publishers Involved

We were talking about WOTC splat books. Which don't have OGL in them. Bill91 commented that not including WOTC material in the SRD was somehow a 3.5 thing. It was much earlier than that. Other than the Epic Level Handbook and the Unearthed Arcana, what other WOTC book made it into the SRD (outside of core of course)?

Don't try to read more into what I've said than is there. WotC included the 3.5 core books, Unearthed Arcana, Epic (I think) and psionics. And that's pretty much it once 3.5 came around. Hardly any 3.5 era splat book material is in there, as I said, but that doesn't mean I'm implying that 3.0 era splat books made it into the 3.0 SRD. I may give the 3.0 era splat books little notice since they were ultimately superseded by the 3.5 ones and don't retain much of my attention but I'm making no implication that they were in the SRD.

WotC retreated from including their material in the SRD. Full stop. They failed to make most of their non-core material OGL. They failed to make the OGL work for them to the degree it could have worked.
 

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How many 3.5 PHB's does Pathfinder sell? How many 3.5 Monster Manuals does Pathfinder sell? How is WOTC drawing any benefit whatsoever from Pathfinder? After all, Pathfinder is using the license that is supposed to directly benefit WOTC.

The existence of 4e and the GSL doesn't change that.

Does it even make sense to talk about PF in those terms? WotC had already put themselves in a position to not benefit from someone else publishing OGL stuff before Pathfinder was on the scene. PF was created to fill that very gap. That said, it sounds like WotC's 3e reprints did some brisk business. So how exactly did Pathfinder hurt WotC's OGL benefits? I doubt you can really quantify that. It might even be that PF's presence in the market helped keep some people's appetite going for 3e, thus helping the sales of the reprint.
 

The idea was that people would come to D&D from outside games, but, there's little or no evidence that that was ever true. People went from D&D to other d20 games, or went straight to other d20 games. How many people started playing d20 variants and then moved into buying D&D?

I don't know; how many did?

I've never heard that theory before - that wasn't the idea at all. The idea was never that people would start with other games and then move to D&D. The idea was that D&D was well-supported by third-party publishers via use of the OGL and - crucially- the d20 STL, and thus an attractive prospect from the outset - which it was. And that the d20 logo would create a large player network of people who knew the core rules to the game - which it did.

How many 3.5 PHB's does Pathfinder sell? How many 3.5 Monster Manuals does Pathfinder sell?

Well, none. The game isn't in print. But that minor witticism (yeah, I know, I won't give up my day job) aside, see my answer below.

After all, Pathfinder is using the license that is supposed to directly benefit WOTC.

Pathfinder's an outlier, though. And Pathfinder isn't great because of the OGL; it's great because it's produced by an excellent company made of people who know what they're doing.

Don't get me wrong. I understand your line of reasoning, and I don't fully disagree. Pathfinder is based on the OGL; Pathfinder has the largest market share right now; therefore the OGL is bad for WotC. I get it; I'm sure that plenty of folks at WotC see it exactly that way, too. I've made that same argument in one of the millions of copies of this conversation that have taken place on these boards.

IMO the difference is that Dancey etc. assumed that users of the OGL would need the d20 STL (the logo license) to make an impact - and at first that was true. The d20 STL prevented creation of a complete game; no character generation meant that the 3.5 core rulebooks were required by every single third-party product. But the d20 STL was withdrawn (and the logo had lost its luster by then, anyway, and companies' own product lines names started to assert themselves as the dominant branding, making the logo less and less vital each year), so OGL-only products started to matter. And those could be complete games. Not many did what Pathfinder managed, though.

The existence of 4e and the GSL doesn't change that.

Sorry; I've gotten a bit lost along the way. What doesn't it change?

WotC's entire strategy during that time - not just 4E and the GSL - helped contribute to Paizo's decision to launch the Pathfinder RPG. Crucially, the cancellation of the DRAGON and DUNGEON licenses were a hammer blow which forced Paizo to completely change direction. While I can't speak for them, from what I've heard them say, that was the biggest factor. Lisa Stevens:


Our license for publishing Dragon and Dungeon was due to expire in March 2007, and this meeting would be the first step toward negotiating a renewal of that contract. It took a while to find a time that fit everyone's schedule, and we finally had to resort to meeting by phone rather than face-to-face. On May 30, 2006 at 2 pm, I had a conference call with Wizards, and it was during this call that they let me know that they had other plans for Dragon and Dungeon; they wouldn't be renewing the license for the magazines. I personally don't remember much of my reaction, but after the call, I brought Erik in to my office and told him the news, tears streaming down my face. (Read Erik's recollection of this major event below.)

We always knew that this might be a possibility. That was, after all, one of the main reasons we had been building the other parts of our business: so we wouldn't be caught unprepared if the unthinkable were to happen. But I don't think any of us ever really thought that this was much more than a remote possibility. Dragon and Dungeon were finally firing on all cylinders and were enjoying critical acclaim that hadn't been seen in years. So this news struck us to the core. In one meeting, the last large chunk of the company that we started not quite four years before was going away. We were numb. How the heck were we going to cope with this? Frankly, it seemed impossible at the time.

I have to give Wizards of the Coast a lot of praise for how they handled the end of the license. Contractually, they only needed to deliver notice of non-renewal by the end of December 2006; without the extra seven months' notice they chose to give us, I'm not sure that Paizo could have survived. Wizards also granted our request to extend the license through August 2007 so that we could finish up the Savage Tide adventure path. This gave us quite a bit of time to figure out how we were going to cope with the end of the magazines. It would have been very easy for WotC to have handled this in a way which would have effectively left Paizo for dead—all they would have had to do was follow the letter of the contract. Instead, they treated us like the valued partner we had been, giving us the ability to both plan and execute a strategy for survival. For that, I will always be thankful.

The news caused us to kick our plans for other product lines into a higher gear. In fact, before even two hours had elapsed, we'd already scheduled an offsite meeting at my house. We knew that the key to our survival beyond Dragon and Dungeon hinged upon our mastery of creating adventures, particularly Adventure Paths. So we started to plan for what would end up being one of the most shocking announcements in the history or RPG gaming... but that tale will have to wait until the 2007 blog!


 
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That piece you quoted led me to track down the Paizo blogs that retraced the history of the company. Fantastic reading. For anyone else who might not have read it before, you can find the whole series here.
 

Does it even make sense to talk about PF in those terms? WotC had already put themselves in a position to not benefit from someone else publishing OGL stuff before Pathfinder was on the scene. PF was created to fill that very gap. That said, it sounds like WotC's 3e reprints did some brisk business. So how exactly did Pathfinder hurt WotC's OGL benefits? I doubt you can really quantify that. It might even be that PF's presence in the market helped keep some people's appetite going for 3e, thus helping the sales of the reprint.

Morrus answered this for me. The point of OGL material was to keep people playing D&D. Which was great for WOTC.

But, as Morrus says, Pathfinder is a complete game. Pathfinder doesn't sell 3.5 PHB's. It does not drive anyone to play 3.5 D&D. Which is what each and every OGL product was meant to do. Even though WOTC might not be supporting 3.5 D&D, what difference does that make? The point is, the OGL failed to do what it was supposed to do - namely sell 3.5 PHB's.

Does anyone actually think that the purpose of the OGL was to force WOTC to print a single version of D&D in perpetuity, never changing or altering the game? Even if 4e had been as open as 3e, do you really think it would be a great deal more popular than it is now? Considering most people are turned off of 4e because of the game itself, not because of the OGL (that might be another nail in the coffin, but hardly the first one that people point to), do you really think an OGL style license would have saved 4e?

Does anyone think that the OGL really has that much power?
 

Does anyone actually think that the purpose of the OGL was to force WOTC to print a single version of D&D in perpetuity, never changing or altering the game? Even if 4e had been as open as 3e, do you really think it would be a great deal more popular than it is now? Considering most people are turned off of 4e because of the game itself, not because of the OGL (that might be another nail in the coffin, but hardly the first one that people point to), do you really think an OGL style license would have saved 4e?

Does anyone think that the OGL really has that much power?

I don't think it was meant for WotC to print 3.5 for ever. But it was a bargain with it's customers that it wouldn't jump the shark, and if it did there was an escape hatch.

I think Paizo knew they were going to survive and possibly thrive as a company when they saw the conversion rate of Dragon/Dungeon subscribers to their Adventure Paths. From what I understand that level of conversion surprised them. It wasn't the success of the Pathfinder game that sealed their survival as a company, though I'm sure it's success hasn't hurt, it was the number of AP subscribers.

From what I understand, Paizo fully intended to go 4e at that time. All they needed was the license issues cleared up, an OGL would have been perfect. I know that Paizo has said that 4e just doesn't fit with what they wanted to do, but if it was OGL they could have printed supplemental material that could have made it so. They could have printed it knowing that the OGL bargain was in place. The GSL didn't give them that, so they had no choice but to do something else, something other than support 4e.

Part of 4e's problems was a lack of great adventures early on, and a lack of knowledge about the good ones later on, Paizo making adventures for 4e would have made a huge difference.

I was running a ton of 4e at the time and looking over my shoulder at the AP's. The conversions of some of them, while great, just weren't enough.
 

Also I think the OGL has helped WotC more recently, other that with the reprints. I think that the OGL really helped the OSR as part of the industry. I think WotC gets more sales on dndclassics then they would have if it wasn't for OSR OGL clones and the new interested it garnered.
 

Honestly, I think Morrus has the bottom line here:

Morrus said:
Don't get me wrong. I understand your line of reasoning, and I don't fully disagree. Pathfinder is based on the OGL; Pathfinder has the largest market share right now; therefore the OGL is bad for WotC. I get it; I'm sure that plenty of folks at WotC see it exactly that way, too. I've made that same argument in one of the millions of copies of this conversation that have taken place on these boards.

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...ible-Publishers-Involved/page30#ixzz2ic8E6WXu

And it's the part about "plenty of folks at WOTC see it exactly that way too", that, to me, seals the fate of a 5e OGL. Again, don't get me wrong. I'd love to see a 5e that was open. But, I honestly don't think it's going to happen. The difficulties trying to have an OGL and a DDI for one is going to be a huge impediment, and the second big stumbling block is the success of Pathfinder.

I just can't see how any company would give away the millions of dollars in development that WOTC's sinking into 5e (and it is millions of dollars) when there is a significant chance that doing so will give rise to another Paizo ten years down the line.
 

I have to agree that WotC very probably isn't going OGL with 5e. I think if they were it would have been announced already.
 


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