LIfe Without Alignment

[Zephrin the Lost]

I've read both preview books and I'm looking forward to the new edition of the game, but I'm concerned how the absence of alignment will change things.

Determining evil by a persons actions seems out of place in a setting where evil can be seen as absolute. Sort of 'you are what you have done in the last 15 minutes.' And what does 'evil-curious', which is mentioned several times in the preview books, mean, exactly?

--Z

 

[Larrin]

Evil-curious is someone that flirts with doing evil things, but hasn't really thrown down completely for the side of evil. think of it as someone who is 'playfully, experimentally or just marginally evil enough they could still avoid actually evil'. many young people go through a phase of being evil curious before they settle on an alignment. much experimentation goes on in colledge.

The reason they removed the need to declare evil is there has been such a backlash against black and white ( and gray) absolutes, so they're giving players the option of saying from the start "Hey i'm going to be evil" or they can say "Hey i'm not always very nice, and i'll kill if i have to or want to, but i'm not a blackhearted villain whom should be slain by paladins on sight, but maybe, you know. some day."

 

[Derren]

The reason they removed the need to declare evil is there has been such a backlash against black and white ( and gray) absolutes, so they're giving players the option of saying from the start "Hey i'm going to be evil" or they can say "Hey i'm not always very nice, and i'll kill if i have to or want to, but i'm not a blackhearted villain whom should be slain by paladins on sight, but maybe, you know. some day."

Imo they removed alignment because many people didn't bother to read the rules for it and instead used their real world morality in the game which, of course, didn't worked at all.

 

[Zephrin the Lost]

The reason they removed the need to declare evil is there has been such a backlash against black and white ( and gray) absolutes, so they're giving players the option of saying from the start "Hey i'm going to be evil" or they can say "Hey i'm not always very nice, and i'll kill if i have to or want to, but i'm not a blackhearted villain whom should be slain by paladins on sight, but maybe, you know. some day."

Didn't players always have the option of saying they would be evil from the start? They would often be kicked off of the team, however, because the definitions of the evil alignments made it tough to trust an evil pc. There were exceptions, however.

So how will that work in 4e? Through the painful process of getting players to agree on what is acceptable to their group, while the 'evil' pc explains and explains how what he has done was not evil, but only expedient, necessary, etc?

I know there are many games that jettison alignment already- how does it work in those games?

--Z

 

[Mortellan]

I agree with Derren. And with an option of 'Undecided' who in their right mind would select good or evil now? Throw out law and chaos, you may as well ditch it all I say. Better to use a Demeanor-ish system like WoD that you can accurately RP up to.

 

[Desdichado]

The concerns and problems you guys are seeing are completely foreign to me. Can I ask a question? Have you ever played another RPG other than D&D? I can't think (off hand) of any other game that has alignment, and certainly I've never heard of anyone complaining that their GURPS or HERO or whatever other system game spiralled out of control because of the lack of roleplaying guidance that alignment causes.

I guess I could better address the questions if I understood exactly what if is you are afraid would (or will) happen without a strictly defined alignment. I've never played in a game where alignment featured; even in my D&D games we minimize it to the point of nonexistence without formally removing it.

 

[Irda Ranger]

And what does 'evil-curious', which is mentioned several times in the preview books, mean, exactly?

It means you do evil things every now and then, but you don't have the balls to wear the "I'm with EVIL" t-shirt. Refusing to admit that doing Evil IS Evil is part of the package.

It's an emotionally immature, lack of commitment thing.

Alternatively, it means that you're romantically involved with the idea of being Evil, but you can't actually bring yourself to do Evil stuff, so instead you just dress like the Evil kids and wear lots of weird makeup.

 

[GreatLemur]

The concerns and problems you guys are seeing are completely foreign to me. Can I ask a question? Have you ever played another RPG other than D&D? I can't think (off hand) of any other game that has alignment, and certainly I've never heard of anyone complaining that their GURPS or HERO or whatever other system game spiralled out of control because of the lack of roleplaying guidance that alignment causes.

Yes. Thank you. EXACTLY.

Alignment systems are the exception, not the rule. "How does it work?" We try to roleplay our characters as if they had believable personalities, moral systems, allegiences, and preconceptions. Just like any good D&D player does.

It means you do evil things every now and then, but you don't have the balls to wear the "I'm with EVIL" t-shirt. Refusing to admit that doing Evil IS Evil is part of the package.

It's an emotionally immature, lack of commitment thing.

Alternatively, it means that you're romantically involved with the idea of being Evil, but you can't actually bring yourself to do Evil stuff, so instead you just dress like the Evil kids and wear lots of weird makeup.

I pretty much immediately took the term to mean the latter definition, rather than the former. They were talking about tieflings and Warlocks, as I recall, not baby-killing Paladins.

 

[Set]

Same way the rest of us get through our daily lives without alignments.

Do whatever the heck you were gonna do anyway, and then, 2 seconds later when the part of the brain in charge of rationalization kicks in, try and come up with some lame self-justification for why you did that thing based on what 'kind of person' you have fooled yourself into thinking that you are.

 

[zoroaster100]

I am thrilled that they are jettisoning formal alignment for every creature and character. It is one of the things I am happiest about regarding fourt edition. I always wanted to get rid of formal alignment for creatures and characters in my games, except for beings such as angels, demons, devils, paladins, evil clerics, etc. but there were too many mechanics tied to alignment to make that as simple as it should be. In particular, I really disliked that for even the most basic adventure featuring deception, intrigue, etc. you needed powerful magic to avoid low level spells and abilities like detect evil and know alignment, and even then the fact someone was hiding their alignment was a dead giveaway.