Lightning Bolt and Sage Advice...

[The_lone_gunman]

I have always thought of the lightning bolt not actually shooting out from the caster but simply filling the space in the range with electricity. This is why a wall stops it (if you have no line of sight you cant extend it further). The effect looks like a lightning bolt shooting out but is actually simply filling the AOE with electrical discharge.

But then I rarely try to apply physics or really think about stuff like this at all longer than about 20 seconds.

TLG

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Lightning Bolt is a spell effect, not something that can be blocked by cover like, say, an arrow. If it makes things easier, think of it as a spell that simply affects everything within its range (like Turning Undead, for instance,) rather than something that's thrown, shot, projected, etc.

What's interesting is that it makes Lightning Bolt even more tactically different than Fireball, since Fireball is subject to Cover...

 

[Caliban]

Lightning Bolt is a spell effect, not something that can be blocked by cover like, say, an arrow. If it makes things easier, think of it as a spell that simply affects everything within its range (like Turning Undead, for instance,) rather than something that's thrown, shot, projected, etc.

What's interesting is that it makes Lightning Bolt even more tactically different than Fireball, since Fireball is subject to Cover...

Lightning bolts have a reflex save. Cover should give you a bonus to your save, just as it does against any other reflex save. Nothing in the lightning bolt restriction indicates that it would be an exception to this.

Despite what the Sage states, while several people between you and the wizard casting the spell won't stop the spell, they will give you a cover bonus to your reflex save. If they provide cover against weapon attacks, then they provide cover against spell attacks.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Fireball allows a reflex save, and yet can somehow effect someone standing behind a stone wall with 100% cover. (see the illustration in the PH.) Why should Lightning Bolt be any less effective?

[edit to add]: The spell description of Lightning Bolt does not provide for any additional benefits from cover. Lacking that, it should be treated as any other spell effect. It offers a reflex save to jump clear, and that's it.

Also: My earlier post that Fireball is subject to Cover is referencing the text regarding the tiny pre-blast bead, and the fact that a ranged touch attack is required to move it through narrow openings. The ranged touch attack would be subject to cover, just as a ray would. A Lightning Bolt contains no such text. Provided line of effect wasn't blocked, it would move through the narrow opening without any roll, and, as it can be 10' wide, possibly hit foes on the other side of the wall that the caster can't even see.

 

[Caliban]

Fireball allows a reflex save, and yet can somehow effect someone standing behind a stone wall with 100% cover. (see the illustration in the PH.) Why should Lightning Bolt be any less effective?

[edit to add]: The spell description of Lightning Bolt does not provide for any additional benefits from cover. Lacking that, it should be treated as any other spell effect. It offers a reflex save to jump clear, and that's it.

Also: My earlier post that Fireball is subject to Cover is referencing the text regarding the tiny pre-blast bead, and the fact that a ranged touch attack is required to move it through narrow openings. The ranged touch attack would be subject to cover, just as a ray would. A Lightning Bolt contains no such text. Provided line of effect wasn't blocked, it would move through the narrow opening without any roll, and, as it can be 10' wide, possibly hit foes on the other side of the wall that the caster can't even see.

Sure it can. But anyone on the otherside of the wall would still get a bonus to their Reflex save as indicated on page 133 of the PHB. It specifically mentions gaining a bonus on saves against dragon's breath and fireballs, and states that it applies to attacks that originate or spread out from a point on the other side of the cover. I don't see why a Lightning bolt would be any different.

The ranged touch attack trick you were talking about is so that you can place the bead on the other side of the cover, and deny them the cover bonus to their save.

 

[MerakSpielman]

I thought the stone wall DID provide complete protection from the fireball, unless the door was open or the fireball did enough damage to the closed door to burn through it.

I remember this argument coming up regarding fireballs hitting the exterior of a wall withing which was an arrow slit. The archer behind the slit, I thought that thread decided, was protected.

Or maybe the thread was an argument about whether he was protected or if he just got a bonus to his save. I don't remember what they decided.

If stone doesn't block the radius of a fireball, which doesn't make sense to me, could you cast a fireball against the wall of a cave to fry wraiths (or any incorporial or can-tunnel-through-stone-without-leaving-a-hole creature) lurking inside the stone?

Something here just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Caliban]

I thought the stone wall DID provide complete protection from the fireball, unless the door was open or the fireball did enough damage to the closed door to burn through it.

If there is no gap in the stone for the fire to spread through, it will.

I remember this argument coming up regarding fireballs hitting the exterior of a wall withing which was an arrow slit. The archer behind the slit, I thought that thread decided, was protected.

According to the cover rules on page 133 of the PHB, if the arrow slit is more than 1 square foot (and they usually are), then the fireball can spread through the slit from the exterior, but the archer will have 9/10ths cover, which gives him the benefit of Improved Evasion against the fireball, and a +4 on his reflex save.

Or maybe the thread was an argument about whether he was protected or if he just got a bonus to his save. I don't remember what they decided.

It would be 9/10th's cover. Look at the illustration on page 133 of the PHB.

If stone doesn't block the radius of a fireball, which doesn't make sense to me, could you cast a fireball against the wall of a cave to fry wraiths (or any incorporial or can-tunnel-through-stone-without-leaving-a-hole creature) lurking inside the stone?

Something here just doesn't make sense to me.

The stone itself blocks the fireball, but the fire will spread through any gaps in the stone wall that are 1 square foot or bigger.

 

[Hypersmurf]

It would be 9/10th's cover. Look at the illustration on page 133 of the PHB.

While I'm squarely in the cover-vs-a-Fireball camp, I'm at something of a loss as to how to judge cover in some situations vs a spread.

Look at the illustration on p204. If that northwestern zombie was standing 10 feet further east, he's still in the affected area, but he has total cover relative to the point of origin. How do you determine what degree of cover he has for purposes of avoiding the fireball?

Likewise someone standing 10 feet from the point of origin, completely behind a tower shield (total cover vs an arrow). What is his cover against the fireball? If the diagram is drawn, he is still well within the affected area.

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

While I'm squarely in the cover-vs-a-Fireball camp, I'm at something of a loss as to how to judge cover in some situations vs a spread.

Look at the illustration on p204. If that northwestern zombie was standing 10 feet further east, he's still in the affected area, but he has total cover relative to the point of origin. How do you determine what degree of cover he has for purposes of avoiding the fireball?

Likewise someone standing 10 feet from the point of origin, completely behind a tower shield (total cover vs an arrow). What is his cover against the fireball? If the diagram is drawn, he is still well within the affected area.

-Hyp.

Spreads are a bit different.

I would just assign it either 3/4 or 9/10 cover, depending on the size of the gap the fire comes through.

For the illustration on page 204, I would give them 3/4 cover.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Spreads are a bit different.

I would just assign it either 3/4 or 9/10 cover, depending on the size of the gap the fire comes through.

For the illustration on page 204, I would give them 3/4 cover.

And a creature standing behind a creature of the same size? Half-cover per normal, or less?

-Hyp.