limiting buff durations

[kreynolds]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: limiting buff durations

+ Vestment on sword & shield, GMW on sword, etc...
And he was a lot tougher than them to start with.

You know, after all these spells are cast, your spellcasters themeselves will have an effective CR equal to half, if even that, of the normal value, so they won't actually be able to contribute to the encounter since the majority of their useful spells will be used up.

Now, I pose this question for you: How can these very few spellcasters possibly get around enough to ensure that every encounter will have buffed up soldiers, and even then, with GMW being a 3rd level spell (4th for a cleric), there's no way that you would have enough spellcasters to go around to buff up even a small fraction of soldiers in this manner.

So, in my eyes, it isn't a question of "How is it that spellcasters don't continuously buff up their soldiers" but rather a matter of "Its a good thing for us (the players) that there aren't enough spellcasters to go around, isn't it?". I say this because, quite frankly, you simply don't have enough spellcasters. So, there's no way that more than 3% (rough estimate) of your encounters will ever include more than one buffed up soldier, if even that at all.

 

[Mike Sullivan]

+ Vestment on sword & shield, GMW on sword, etc...
And he was a lot tougher than them to start with.

Wait just a cotton-pickin' minute, here!

This guy's sword -- what's its natural bonus?

'Cause, dude. To get it to +3, that's a 9th level caster with GMW.

There are 8 Clerics, 4-5 Wizards, and 2-3 Sorcerers of that level -- there are 16 Adepts/Other, but they don't have GMW on their spell-list.

If you want 12th level, you're talking 2 Clerics, 1 Wizard, and no Sorcerers. That's to get it to a +4 bonus. And we're talking the serious rivals for this guy's power, at that point, or, if they're trusted, his most capable minions. Seriously, one of the three most powerful spellcasters in a land of 8,000,000 people has nothing better to do than pump this guy's sword from +3 to +4 on a twice-daily basis?

It's the same deal for Vestment.

 

[Mike Sullivan]

PS: Your PC's are in the same level range as the top spellcasters in Evil Guy's kingdom. A quick Dispel Magic will wipe out roughly half of this guy's buffs on the first round of combat.

 

[jerichothebard]

PS: Your PC's are in the same level range as the top spellcasters in Evil Guy's kingdom. A quick Dispel Magic will wipe out roughly half of this guy's buffs on the first round of combat.
Mike Sullivan

Exactly - and therein lies the balance - he's buffed, they're buffed, a round of Dispel Magics (on the house!) and then there is balance again - he's not so buffed, they're not so buffed.

I kind of agree with the others - it really isn't likely that they he would have them casting all those spells every day. It is far more likely that he would have them create him the buffing magic items - gauntlets, headbands, cloaks, bracers, what ever. Thus, he isn't requiring all of his top minions to be in one place all the time, making them vulnerable. Like, say, the Secret Service does during the State of the Union Address - one cabinet member is ALWAYS at an 'undisclosed location' so that there is always a clear chain of command in case someone flys a DC-10 into the Capital building. Magic Items are less susceptible to dispel, too!

BTW, even in my party of 12th level characters (more than 75% spellcasters!) we typically only cast one or two on ourselves, unless we are pretty sure that we are going up against the Big Boss.

They just aren't as common as you are wanting to assume.


jericho

 

[Anubis]

Why not just have something really huge happen and have magic suddenly become greater in abundance to coincide with a standard game? That would make things much simpler.

 

[Mike Sullivan]

Why not just have something really huge happen and have magic suddenly become greater in abundance to coincide with a standard game? That would make things much simpler.

Ugh. That sounds kind of tacky and unnecessary to me.

Anyhow, look, I don't think that it's really necessary to limit buffs in order to challenge your players, nor that buffs will be as common as you seem to be thinking even with their standard durations. But certainly there is a tactic of preemptive buffing in D&D3, especially at higher levels, and yes, I could see it becoming more common if perma-buff magic items like Belts of Giant Strength are rare.

So, let's say that you nerf the buff spells down to 10 minutes/level. Does that make Wizards or Sorcerers unviable as classes? I'd argue that no, it doesn't. It makes particular builds of Wizards and Sorcerers unviable. They'll tend more towards artillery roles, and less towards support roles. If you're retconning this into your game, I'd allow Sorcerers to re-choose away from some of the spells you're nerfing, if you've got any Sorcerers in your party.

Do Clerics become unviable? Buffs are a much more major part of their repetoire. I'd suggest that they probably aren't unviable, due to mainly to the great strength of the existing class. They will tend more towards a healing role, which is, I think, the most boring role available to Clerics, which is kind of a shame.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

To answer a few questions about the specifics of the situation...what we know about Tarkane is that he has (gossip says) a high level wizard/evoker type as a close friend (who we're also quite worried about) plus a large magical society of possible Death Cultists

So it's safe to assume that he has a good chance of being buffed every day, which as S'mon said, isn't the style of thing he wants.

I also think that at the level we're at, and with the new haste rules, which we're using, self buffing clerics are right out anyway. By the time you get all those spells cast the fight is normally over One of the main reasons I went for an offensive minded spell casting cleric this time. Flame strike, summon monster, searing light, blade barrier etc etc. Very suitable durations.

It might affect the sorceror in the group, we'll have to see what S'mon says, but I don't think it's going to hurt me too much. I've just got to change and adapt my daily spell list to less buffs, which in some ways is good because it frees up some slots for more rounded spells that I don't always have room to cast!

Plus please note that double-empowerment is not allowed in the campaign. Again, we've not found it to be a problem so far. In fact, this campaign and this group of players may be the best I've ever played with!

S'mon, if you want me to stay out of this thread, just say, OK?

 

[Mike Sullivan]

To answer a few questions about the specifics of the situation...what we know about Tarkane is that he has (gossip says) a high level wizard/evoker type as a close friend (who we're also quite worried about) plus a large magical society of possible Death Cultists

So it's safe to assume that he has a good chance of being buffed every day, which as S'mon said, isn't the style of thing he wants.

It sounds to me like S'mon wants it both ways -- magic is "rare," and spellcasters are "rare," but the bad guy has plenty of 'em. That's what I'm getting, at least.

I also think that at the level we're at, and with the new haste rules, which we're using, self buffing clerics are right out anyway. By the time you get all those spells cast the fight is normally over

Right -- that's why one preemptively buffs, instead of buffing as the time of combat.

It might affect the sorceror in the group, we'll have to see what S'mon says, but I don't think it's going to hurt me too much. I've just got to change and adapt my daily spell list to less buffs, which in some ways is good because it frees up some slots for more rounded spells that I don't always have room to cast!

Your Sorc isn't doing a lot of self-buffing, is he? That's generally a pretty narrow, specific build.

 

[S'mon]

Why not just have something really huge happen and have magic suddenly become greater in abundance to coincide with a standard game? That would make things much simpler.

Well, for the past few hundred years of game time, decade or so of real time, it's established that magic is slowly fading from the world, which is also slowly growing colder. Whether this is cyclical or permanent is uncertain, but what is certain is that there's going to be less magic before there gets to be more (if that ever happens). I'm not changing the fundamentals of my world just because of the current ruleset I'm using!

 

[S'mon]

So, let's say that you nerf the buff spells down to 10 minutes/level. Does that make Wizards or Sorcerers unviable as classes? I'd argue that no, it doesn't. It makes particular builds of Wizards and Sorcerers unviable. They'll tend more towards artillery roles, and less towards support roles. If you're retconning this into your game, I'd allow Sorcerers to re-choose away from some of the spells you're nerfing, if you've got any Sorcerers in your party.

Do Clerics become unviable? Buffs are a much more major part of their repetoire. I'd suggest that they probably aren't unviable, due to mainly to the great strength of the existing class. They will tend more towards a healing role, which is, I think, the most boring role available to Clerics, which is kind of a shame.

This is true, but it's the way it was in 1e-2e so it doesn't particularly bother me. There is a Sorcerer PC, but he uses his Cleric cohort for most of the buffs - other than his trick-shot Mass Haste. I don't think 10 min/level will make the buff spells unviable, but we'll see.