limiting buff durations
- Thread starter S'mon
- Start date
Mike Sullivan said:
The bad guy (Tarkane) is emperor of 8 million people, backed by both a church of the god of magic, and by one of the two societies of wizards. While there are few spellcasters overall, they are heavily concentrated around Tarkane. You can assume that Tarkane & his henchmen are in the 11-20 level range. The "half NPCs at each higher level" rule applies only to level 9 IMC, after that it's more like half every 2 levels, and there are a few outliers who may be of arbitrarily high levels.
Tallarn - no, please do continue to contribute. The more you respond the less I have to do so & risk giving away campaign secrets!
Just checked - my campaign does indeed fit Monte's definition of 'low magic' on pg 164 of the DMG - magic is about twice as rare as 3e standard, and the sale of magic items is a rarity in the economic structure. The common people rarely if ever encounter magic, and arcane spellcasters & nonhumans are regarded with fear and often persecuted in many areas.
Mathew_Freeman
Adventurer
It's also worth noting in this case that the concentration of magical power around the PC's is quite remarkable. I've been active in the campaign for around 3 months or so, and NPC's already are quite likely to know who I am. Same goes for the Sorceror, and the other two cleric cohorts. We're a pretty dangerous, up and coming bunch.
I have a feeling that if we top Tarkane, we might get even more famous. Or infamous. Not sure yet, lots of politics.
I have a feeling that if we top Tarkane, we might get even more famous. Or infamous. Not sure yet, lots of politics.
Mike Sullivan
First Post
Re: Re: Re: limiting buff durations
So? They're the three most powerful casters in the Overking's Kingdom.
First, if he's smart, he's not going to use them for this -- if they're loyal, they'd be more use to him not at his side, but acting as proxies for his power. If they're not loyal, having them routinely cast multiple spells on him per day is just asking to get assassinated.
Second, why would they put up with that kind of menial chore? At that level, they can leave any time they want, and there ain't much the Overking can do about it. They're being told to be his body-servents. To put it in real-world terms, suppose that you were in the very, very top of a specialist field -- one of the three best physicisists around, for example. And your department head wanted you to make him coffee every morning.
It's not exactly that you're totally inconvenianced by making coffee -- it's not hard, and it doesn't take long. But would you do it? If my boss started telling me to make him coffee every morning, I'd quit -- and I'm nothing like the top of my field.
Look, as I said, if buff spells don't fit your world, they don't fit your world. I don't think that nerfing them will seriously affect your game. But, to lay it out:
1. I think that you're dramatically overestimating their utility.
2. I think that you're subverting your own attempts to make magic be rare and mysterious by making spellusers be commonplace and utilitarian around the Overlord-guy.
S'mon said:
So? They're the three most powerful casters in the Overking's Kingdom.
First, if he's smart, he's not going to use them for this -- if they're loyal, they'd be more use to him not at his side, but acting as proxies for his power. If they're not loyal, having them routinely cast multiple spells on him per day is just asking to get assassinated.
Second, why would they put up with that kind of menial chore? At that level, they can leave any time they want, and there ain't much the Overking can do about it. They're being told to be his body-servents. To put it in real-world terms, suppose that you were in the very, very top of a specialist field -- one of the three best physicisists around, for example. And your department head wanted you to make him coffee every morning.
It's not exactly that you're totally inconvenianced by making coffee -- it's not hard, and it doesn't take long. But would you do it? If my boss started telling me to make him coffee every morning, I'd quit -- and I'm nothing like the top of my field.
Look, as I said, if buff spells don't fit your world, they don't fit your world. I don't think that nerfing them will seriously affect your game. But, to lay it out:
1. I think that you're dramatically overestimating their utility.
2. I think that you're subverting your own attempts to make magic be rare and mysterious by making spellusers be commonplace and utilitarian around the Overlord-guy.
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Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
S'mon said:
I think it is a perfectly sound house rule. GMW is a prime example of 1hour/level stupidity when you compare it with the other 3rd level weapon buff spell "keen edge". Since keen edge gives a +1 equiv bonus, and lasts for 10mins/level, WHY should GMW give a +1 to +5 bonus and last for hours?!? Lunacy! Someone fell asleep when balancing those spells...
Similarly, I think the attribute buff spells should be 10 mins per level, thus allowing someone to summon magical str/dex/health for a short while when necessary (rather than walking round buffed up all the time - which is unlike any fantasy novel I've ever read but which would be s.o.p. in a D&D world). This isn't even considering the silliness which the long duration provides in the FR with the mental buff spells, since once you reach 8th level a wizard or sorcerer can simply cast a doubly-extended buff spell and have it for the full 24 hrs... which is long enough to give him bonus spells for the higher attribute, which he can then use to cast the spell next time etc... Sooner or later it becomes a free enhancement for him(!) From 12th level onwards he only needs a single-extended buff slot to do the same thing.
Mike Sullivan
First Post
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: limiting buff durations
No, please don't. You don't need to justify yourself to me. But do consider this:
You say that magic is supposed to be rare and mysterious in your world. Check. Makes sense to me.
Okay, but this one guy now not only has a ton of magic-users around him, he's got them behaving like menials around him and behaving in non-mysterious manners. Okay, sure. I'm totally willing to believe that your campaign justifies that.
But now, you say that because magic ought to be rare and mysterious, you want to nerf the magic that isn't rare or mysterious around this guy, so as to tone it back down a level.
Can you see that you're fighting against yourself here? You're folding back and forth in a way that seems uneccesary. If you want this guy to have magic at his beck and call, let him have magic at his beck and call. If you want magic to be mysterious and rare (universally or for this guy), then make it mysterious and rare. Don't feel like you have to justify this to me -- I honestly don't care -- but do make sure in your own mind that what you're doing makes sense.
Anyhow, I totally agree with Plane Sailing that it's an odd convention for spellcasters to cast spells on themselves at the beginning of the day for "buffs," and walk around enchanted all the time. I can think of a couple of possible examples in fantasy literature that support the concept -- in "What Good Is a Glass Dagger," by Larry Niven, there's a fairly clear implication that the Warlock keeps himself permenantly surrounded by some defensive spells and prescience enchantements, and in the Deathgate Cycle by Weiss and Hickman, Haplo seems to be physically magically enhanced by his tattoos/runic magic. But by and large, it's not a "normal" part of the genre.
S'mon said:
No, please don't. You don't need to justify yourself to me. But do consider this:
You say that magic is supposed to be rare and mysterious in your world. Check. Makes sense to me.
Okay, but this one guy now not only has a ton of magic-users around him, he's got them behaving like menials around him and behaving in non-mysterious manners. Okay, sure. I'm totally willing to believe that your campaign justifies that.
But now, you say that because magic ought to be rare and mysterious, you want to nerf the magic that isn't rare or mysterious around this guy, so as to tone it back down a level.
Can you see that you're fighting against yourself here? You're folding back and forth in a way that seems uneccesary. If you want this guy to have magic at his beck and call, let him have magic at his beck and call. If you want magic to be mysterious and rare (universally or for this guy), then make it mysterious and rare. Don't feel like you have to justify this to me -- I honestly don't care -- but do make sure in your own mind that what you're doing makes sense.
Anyhow, I totally agree with Plane Sailing that it's an odd convention for spellcasters to cast spells on themselves at the beginning of the day for "buffs," and walk around enchanted all the time. I can think of a couple of possible examples in fantasy literature that support the concept -- in "What Good Is a Glass Dagger," by Larry Niven, there's a fairly clear implication that the Warlock keeps himself permenantly surrounded by some defensive spells and prescience enchantements, and in the Deathgate Cycle by Weiss and Hickman, Haplo seems to be physically magically enhanced by his tattoos/runic magic. But by and large, it's not a "normal" part of the genre.
Re: Re: Re: Re: limiting buff durations
Just a mention that the Overking has dozens of casters able to cast 2nd level spells, not three.
Re 'mysterious and rare' magic - I didn't say that. The magic level is about standard for a 1e AD&D campaign world, it's only 'rare' by 3e standards.
Mike Sullivan said:
Just a mention that the Overking has dozens of casters able to cast 2nd level spells, not three.
Re 'mysterious and rare' magic - I didn't say that. The magic level is about standard for a 1e AD&D campaign world, it's only 'rare' by 3e standards.
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