D&D 5E Limiting Cantrips?

Cruentus

Adventurer
I'll die happy if I never have to shoot a crossbow with my wizard ever again. I hated that while playing my first wizard in 3e and I hate it now. The only way I'd be okay with limiting cantrips is if attack cantrips were made in to class features.

The mechanical difference between a crossbow from a Wizard in 5e and Cantrips are that the Cantrip is superior in every way except for range: more damage (and level increase), no ammo, no range modifiers. So of course the crossbow seems worse in comparison, but that is the trope that Wizards have had for ever - all my Wizards in 1e and 2e were stuck with darts, daggers, and staff. There were no crossbows for wizards. Magic Missile was it until Fireball and Lightning Bolt, and we had to carefully husband those resources.

In my next campaign, I'll probably use the Spell Point System, with a curated (removing encounter avoiding spells, and those that make classes superfluous) and mostly non-overlapping spell list for classes, no damage Cantrips, and Cantrips run 1 spell point per. More flexibility for Casters, maybe build in "upcasting" by adding more spell points to a particular cast, etc.

Ultimately, I want magic to be more esoteric, more powerful for the caster, but more dangerous. Not at all the same as the fighter 'swinging his sword' and nowhere near as common.
 

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Bolares

Hero
The mechanical difference between a crossbow from a Wizard in 5e and Cantrips are that the Cantrip is superior in every way except for range: more damage (and level increase), no ammo, no range modifiers. So of course the crossbow seems worse in comparison, but that is the trope that Wizards have had for ever - all my Wizards in 1e and 2e were stuck with darts, daggers, and staff. There were no crossbows for wizards. Magic Missile was it until Fireball and Lightning Bolt, and we had to carefully husband those resources.

In my next campaign, I'll probably use the Spell Point System, with a curated (removing encounter avoiding spells, and those that make classes superfluous) and mostly non-overlapping spell list for classes, no damage Cantrips, and Cantrips run 1 spell point per. More flexibility for Casters, maybe build in "upcasting" by adding more spell points to a particular cast, etc.

Ultimately, I want magic to be more esoteric, more powerful for the caster, but more dangerous. Not at all the same as the fighter 'swinging his sword' and nowhere near as common.
I reeeeeeally don't care wich one is more efficient indealing damage. To me having to use a crossbow as a wizard sucked the enjoyment out of the game. It broke my expectations. I get why people want cantrips removed, but I'd be cautious when doing it with new players...
 

I've wondered how this is going to work for Dark Sun in particular.

I didn't play 4e at all, let alone in the DS setting, so the idea of an Athas where the rare and widely hated arcane casters have infinite spammable cantrips is going to take a while to get my head around.

I see this as more chances to defile. I'm not a big fan of these types of restrictions in-game but I could see restricted cantrips if you preserve and unrestricted cantrips if you're willing to defile. If your preserver has run out of cantrips and needs more spells, you are suddenly faced with that choice that every preserver hates.
 
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Cruentus

Adventurer
I reeeeeeally don't care wich one is more efficient indealing damage. To me having to use a crossbow as a wizard sucked the enjoyment out of the game. It broke my expectations. I get why people want cantrips removed, but I'd be cautious when doing it with new players...
Sure. But that is where the expectations and enjoyment from player to player differ. My enjoyment was succeeding while overcoming those types of limitations as a caster. I knew what I was getting into going in, if I wanted a crossbow, I'd play a fighter. My last 5e Wizard was just as good as, if not better than the optimized Half Giant Barbarian all around. That wasn't very fun for me, at all.

With re: to players: our table have been playing together for 35ish years (though we are all old and jaded). And new players to DnD usually don't have any preconceived notions about wizard mechanics other than Harry Potter, Dr. Strange, and Gandalf (at least in my experience). None of them use crossbows :)
 


DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
I can totally believe no complaining, especially given the players signed up to it, and anyone who would likely have complained was thus eliminated from even being involved.
Well, they didn't "sign up for it" so much as we had a discussion about it, and even the players with casters felt spamming cantrips each round was too much. Some concerns came up, so we gave it a trial run, and it worked well for us.

1 + Stat mod Jinxes is likely 4-5 combat cantrips for most PCs (6 at higher levels) per SR. 5E is balanced around 6-8 combats, usually of 3-4 rounds per adventuring day and 2 short rests. So if your group takes regular short rests it's not surprising that was enough Jinxes, assuming every other round they used a leveled spell.
Well, we don't follow the "adventuring day" concept really. Encounters happen when they happen, all story driven. Our battles do go longer, maybe 5-6 rounds per instead of 3-4. We do follow the 2 short rests maximum like many tables.

But otherwise, yes, we see more leveled spells being used, which is more "magical" than spamming cantrips for us.

I am slightly surprised people didn't buy light crossbows, though - they're actually more effective than combat cantrips a lot of the time on classes which don't get some sort of damage or to-hit improvement with combat cantrip (assuming a decent DEX).
Probably because when this stuff comes up, people seem to focus on Wizards.

Our clerics, druids, and warlocks are often melee due to good ACs, wildshaping, and hexblade. We still get some ranged warlocks with EB, though. Sorcerers and Wizards with d6 HD do tend to stay ranged, but once they reach 5th level the scaled jinxes (cantrips) damage is more than enough to consider light crossbows instead.

What I don't entirely get is how this ended up different from normal though - because your limit on combat cantrips was pretty high, there's no real reason not to use them every round you would have anyway? You're complaining about the laser light show, and that's a perfectly reasonable aesthetic complaint, but did your changes actually result in significantly less combat cantrips being cast? It seems like they wouldn't have.
As I mentioned above our battles tend to be a bit longer, so a caster could burn through all their jinxes in one encounter if they wanted. But since we don't have an guarantees of when a short rest will come, that is risky in its ways. I'm not saying it is often difficult to get in a short rest, but you just never know. ;)

Overall, I would say it cuts spamming cantrips by about half. Now, we might go back to an earlier rule we had that solved the same problem and is easier in many ways:

You cannot cast attack/damage cantrips two rounds in a row.

The idea is the magic for your cantrip needs one round to recharge. You can do non-attack cantrips in the round in between, or cast a leveled spell of course.
 

Jacob Lewis

Ye Olde GM
Limiting cantrips just seems to go against the reasons for having 5e cantrips in the first place. And why? Because a few cantrips outshine the others, and others don't get used at all? Sounds like a problem with certain cantrips. And while we're at it, certain other spells. And certain feats. And certain classes. Hmm... :unsure:
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
I reeeeeeally don't care wich one is more efficient indealing damage. To me having to use a crossbow as a wizard sucked the enjoyment out of the game. It broke my expectations. I get why people want cantrips removed, but I'd be cautious when doing it with new players...
I guess it depends on what the new players view of magic is?

Look at LotR, Gandalf swings his sword and staff in fights a lot more than using magic. I know a lot of other media goes the other direction (Dr. Strange for example), so it really depends on your views. 🤷‍♂️

FWIW, I have no issue if I might join a friend's group while visiting and they have normal cantrip use.
 

Bolares

Hero
And new players to DnD usually don't have any preconceived notions about wizard mechanics other than Harry Potter, Dr. Strange, and Gandalf (at least in my experience). None of them use crossbows :)
That's exactly my point :p

All the media I consumed about them (except maybe for Gandalf) had wizards casting spells, even when they were weaker. Having to use a crossbow to be usefull in combat was really jarring for me.

But as you said, this is all dependant on personal preference. There is no right or wrong answers here.
 


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